It's a Sad Day - Gracie University

[DKJr]

The problem is the basics and fundamental movements are extremely difficult if not near impossible to learn on your own without a superior grappler present to watch, work with you, and feel your movements.

And Sap not to take away from the fact your students can apply what they know but....duhhhh you're a brown belt I'm pretty sure you can teach the people who train with you.

[sapateiro]

Good points guys. Sorry - I should've communicated my thoughts better. I should've said that the content of the videos is good, as we teach exactly the same stuff here & is regularly proven on the big bad streets.

I agree (as rener & ryron do) that video instruction will never be better than learning the same stuff from a real instructor. But the content is well thought out & rationalised, making it easy to teach & assimilate.

[Sley]

Good points guys. Sorry - I should've communicated my thoughts better. I should've said that the content of the videos is good, as we teach exactly the same stuff here & is regularly proven on the big bad streets.

I agree (as rener & ryron do) that video instruction will never be better than learning the same stuff from a real instructor. But the content is well thought out & rationalised, making it easy to teach & assimilate.

from what I saw the content was actually vary good.

But theirs a big difference between you watching a video and then trying out a move and some one who has never ever done BJJ, its far more complex, I remember while I was waiting for the BJJ GYM in my town to first get build me and one of my friends tried to learn some crappling form the internet and it epically failed, but I guess I sort of gained some basic toughness, because we did it with Body shots allowed.

Basically it may be hard for you to understand how difficult it is to learn grappling from a video with out and prior experience

Your a fucking brown belt, you must have at least around a decade of training, if you just think in mat hours, **** man, just think, now imagine learning without any knowledge at all, its fucking hard...

[1point2]

The Bullies present Evidence #4,380 for the prosecution:

YouTube - Gracie University Commercial

The marketing of this is inherently and fundamentally going to inch closer and closer to bullshido. It is on shaky ground when viewed in the best light, but as time goes on, the marketing of it will become increasingly broad in its claims. "The entire system." Putting the idea of Royce/UFC1-5 as close to the G.U. tapes as Cheney and Rice put Saddam to Osama.

The entire premise is to say, "the tapes are just as good, buy the tapes," because that'll get you hooked on our brand of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and then we'll get your student dues when you come in and train with us, which you'll have to do anyway after you've given us hundreds in distance learning, because you'll have about three months of skills if you're lucky.

[Cybren]

that looks a lot like the nasa Blue Marble images. Maybe we can take them down with terms of use violation.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?vev1id=11656

[slideyfoot]

The Bullies present Evidence #4,380 for the prosecution:

YouTube - Gracie University Commercial

'18,000 students' is somewhat misleading, as I would imagine the vast majority of people who sign up are doing so as a free member (because you have to in order to see the free videos etc), and never actually subscribe to the paid videos.

Still, its marketing, so you would expect that, particularly as it is technically true (in terms of 'students' merely meaning 'registered users').

[cyrijl]

wow, so they teach you how to arm bar, take the back and triangle with no resistance. In almost all of the vids there seemed to be no real sparring. you can't just make up for real live contact with vids. I can watch Glover's deep half guard a million more times, but that doesn't make me proficient.

[gonzomalan]

The Bullies present Evidence #4,380 for the prosecution:

YouTube - Gracie University Commercial

The marketing of this is inherently and fundamentally going to inch closer and closer to bullshido. It is on shaky ground when viewed in the best light, but as time goes on, the marketing of it will become increasingly broad in its claims. "The entire system." Putting the idea of Royce/UFC1-5 as close to the G.U. tapes as Cheney and Rice put Saddam to Osama.

The entire premise is to say, "the tapes are just as good, buy the tapes," because that'll get you hooked on our brand of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and then we'll get your student dues when you come in and train with us, which you'll have to do anyway after you've given us hundreds in distance learning, because you'll have about three months of skills if you're lucky.

exhibit A:

also, it isn't a re-hash of the Rorion/Royce tapes. it's much more detailed, much more self-defense oriented, and definitely updated in techniques. Ryron and Rener are not only Helio Gracie black belts, they are also Helio Gracie certified professors of jiu-jitsu, something not easily had.

exhibit B:

also, it was implied in my last post, but it also bears explicit statement: what you get out of training anything is what you put into it. if you train against sloppy, telegraphed, predictable, shatty punches, that's all you'll be able to defend against, no matter if you train at home using only dvds or in a dojo with an instructor.
the program also suggests that you start off slow and at about 10% resistance so that you can get a feel for the techniques, learn them, and then move up to training with 20, 30, 80% resistance, or however much you feel you can safely train at. not doing it this way, imo, is liable to ingrain bad habits, increase the chance of injury, and decrease the actual learning.
and i swear everything i've said is covered in the free video intro to GU and on Rener's letter to skeptics.

counter-examination 1: "The marketing of this is inherently and fundamentally going to inch closer and closer to bullshido."
how so? did you close your eyes at the end of the clip after the text "learn from home" & "test online" passed by? the next text reads: "Ask the Gracies" and "Find training partners". how is getting a training partner, when you both know your abilities, bullshido? how is being able to ask questions to your instructors, or their authorized assistants, bullshido?

counter-examination 2: "but as time goes on, the marketing of it will become increasingly broad in its claims."
that's why Bullshido.net exists. if that time comes, we will be here.

counter-examination 3: "The entire premise is to say, "the tapes are just as good, buy the tapes,""
see exhibit C:

I agree (as rener & ryron do) that video instruction will never be better than learning the same stuff from a real instructor. But the content is well thought out & rationalised, making it easy to teach & assimilate.

counter-examination 4: "get you hooked on our brand of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu"
not so much their brand, so much as their philosohpy. an mma-based bjj would be about the same in principle, although the Gracie Combatives teaching is rather good.

counter-examination 5: "then we'll get your student dues"
the only "dues" they collect are the fees for belt/stripe testing, which, at $85 per test, is cheaper than what most bjj schools charge for a month's training. will they add up? yes, but so do dues at a physical dojo.

that looks a lot like the nasa Blue Marble images. Maybe we can take them down with terms of use violation.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?vev1id=11656

the work published by NASA, being a program run by the U.S. government, is automatically released into the public domain. anyone can use it, as any claim to a copyright or trademark is forfeited.

wow, so they teach you how to arm bar, take the back and triangle with no resistance. In almost all of the vids there seemed to be no real sparring. you can't just make up for real live contact with vids. I can watch Glover's deep half guard a million more times, but that doesn't make me proficient.

see:

can someone please tell me/point me to where the Gracie Combatives instructions say anywhere along the lines of, "when you prepare to submit your video tests, please put no effort into training, and as you go through the test, make sure your opponent is feeding you the submissions, and if you can eat a sandwich while attempting a flying scissor heel hook, you automatically pass"? if it's there, i sure missed it.
the objective of the Combatives section of the program is simple, and stated multiple times: to prepare people to be able to defend themselves against opponents who 1) are larger than them, and 2) who have no grappling knowledge. (if you think this is unrealistic, stop and consider the amount of boxing fans who refuse to watch mma). the testing guidlines ask the "bad guy" to simulate likely "bad guy" behaviour that fits the description, i.e., doesn't know how to reverse an armbar into a sweep and follow up with a kimura. every position and movement in the program is geared toward defending against anyone who has a puncher's chance of beating you.
i've mentioned this before, but it apparently bears repeating: there is no guarantee of a pass. also worth repeating: if i understand correctly, there's about 35-40 years of teaching experience between Ryron and Rener, so if they're watching video submissions, they know when someone's half-assing the bad guy behaviour and when someone's half-assing the jiu-jitsu. on the Q&A forum, iirc, they stated that they fail about 50% of submissions, so just because you can find a crap video of people's blue belt qualification drills, doesn't mean that video got them a passing score.
sheesh.

see also exhibit B above.

[gonzomalan]

and the "understatement of the week" award goes to.....

I teach this combatives programme here in Cape Town, where self defense is a very useful attribute.

:icon_cool

[Diesel_tke]

I can tell you that I like the fact that they have a video out there for people who don't have access to quality training where they are. I think that in about 5 years this series is going to be the seed that helps bring more people into the sport and more people into MMA who otherwise would not have been.

I have a cousin in Alabama, who is no where near any kind of training facility. He has about 6 people who come over and train in his barn(yeah, yeah, I know) and they love the material and are learning a lot. Before this, most of them were just wrestlers who watched UFC. A few of them have gone to tournaments and did very well. I rolled with a couple of them a few weeks ago and they are not bad. I've been rolling for about 5 years, so it is expected, but they are coming along great.

And none of them are doing the belt testing option. Who gives a **** about belts?