It's a Sad Day - Gracie University

**CrackFox** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 2:03am

Originally Posted by willparadigm

And btw, when I train, I train to defend against punches all the time, not just some of the time so who do you think is going to be better at not getting hit someone who actually trains it or some naga trophy winner?

This is going to depend on how the person training to be hit is actually training. I've seen the Japanese jujutsu class that use the hall before my judo class. They train to defend against hits, but it's all sloppy telegraphed **** with no venom behind it. I think they'd get pretty rattled by somebody looking to actually knock their head off.

**gonzomalan** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 2:45am

Originally Posted by Kintanon

I still don't see this as a good idea... Just from the perspective that I "know" and can demonstrate on a compliant partner about 5x the number of techniques I can actually pull of reliably against a resisting person. I "know" enough **** to be a brown belt, but my actual ability is (hopefully by the end of this month) nooby blue belt.
Any kind of grading that doesn't take ability to perform into account as the primary grading factor is suspect in my eyes.

can someone please tell me/point me to where the Gracie Combatives instructions say anywhere along the lines of, "when you prepare to submit your video tests, please put no effort into training, and as you go through the test, make sure your opponent is feeding you the submissions, and if you can eat a sandwich while attempting a flying scissor heel hook, you automatically pass"? if it's there, i sure missed it.
the objective of the Combatives section of the program is simple, and stated multiple times: to prepare people to be able to defend themselves against opponents who 1) are larger than them, and 2) who have no grappling knowledge. (if you think this is unrealistic, stop and consider the amount of boxing fans who refuse to watch mma). the testing guidlines ask the "bad guy" to simulate likely "bad guy" behaviour that fits the description, i.e., doesn't know how to reverse an armbar into a sweep and follow up with a kimura. every position and movement in the program is geared toward defending against anyone who has a puncher's chance of beating you.
i've mentioned this before, but it apparently bears repeating: there is no guarantee of a pass. also worth repeating: if i understand correctly, there's about 35-40 years of teaching experience between Ryron and Rener, so if they're watching video submissions, they know when someone's half-assing the bad guy behaviour and when someone's half-assing the jiu-jitsu. on the Q&A forum, iirc, they stated that they fail about 50% of submissions, so just because you can find a crap video of people's blue belt qualification drills, doesn't mean that video got them a passing score.
sheesh.

**gonzomalan** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 2:52am

also, it was implied in my last post, but it also bears explicit statement: what you get out of training anything is what you put into it. if you train against sloppy, telegraphed, predictable, shatty punches, that's all you'll be able to defend against, no matter if you train at home using only dvds or in a dojo with an instructor.
the program also suggests that you start off slow and at about 10% resistance so that you can get a feel for the techniques, learn them, and then move up to training with 20, 30, 80% resistance, or however much you feel you can safely train at. not doing it this way, imo, is liable to ingrain bad habits, increase the chance of injury, and decrease the actual learning.
and i swear everything i've said is covered in the free video intro to GU and on Rener's letter to skeptics.

**sapateiro** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 8:41am

Originally Posted by Kintanon

Time will only tell if the combative students compete in some fashion so that their abilities can be judged against those over other competitors. IF they don't compete, then they are just as bad as any other "Too Deadly" ninjer wannabe.

This was discussed a number of pages back. Sport competition is very different to learning self defense. Let me give you an example.

A. Your sport gameplan is jump guard, work for a lapel choke or triangle.

- You jump guard on the street & you'll be slammed into concrete.
- If you do manage to get him kneeling inside your guard he'll probably be trying to punch you in the face.
- Going for a lapel choke won't work if he's wearing a thin t-shirt or similar.
- Triangle. Safe? Now try it while someone is launching bombs with the arm that's outside of the triangle.

B. Your sport gameplan is double-leg, topmount, choke.

- The wrestling variation of the double often includes dropping one knee onto the mat. So concrete would do a lot of damage. Ask Renzo.
- Topmount. Great, provided you can maintain it against an unskilled opponent. Don't think about upa's & elbow escapes, consider explosive pushing up, covering up, and turning to the stomach.
- From topmount, again there's no lapels so there's no simple choke from that position (although arm triangles etc may work if you can set it up).

So I agree that for the sportive side, it's great to test yourself against opponents that are also BJJ guys, but that isn't the point of the combatives programme, and it won't prove anything about being able to defend yourself. My choice would be to learn the self defense stuff first, then add sportive to it when the 'street' reflexes are already in place.

That way you get the best of both worlds :-)

**Sley** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 1:22pm

Originally Posted by willparadigm

not just some of the time so who do you think is going to be better at not getting hit someone who actually trains it or some naga trophy winner?

did you know many NAGA trophy winners also train in striking?

Why would you be better off then them in a bar fight when they can beat the **** out of you standing then beat the **** out of you on the ground?

you basically suck, and are trying to cover it up by saying people better then you also suck.

**willparadigm** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 4:35pm

Exceptionally well said, I couldn't argue with a word of it.

**willparadigm** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 4:37pm

No I don't know how many of them also train in striking and niether do you ... suck this!

**Kintanon** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 5:21pm

Originally Posted by sapateiro

This was discussed a number of pages back. Sport competition is very different to learning self defense. Let me give you an example.

A. Your sport gameplan is jump guard, work for a lapel choke or triangle.

- You jump guard on the street & you'll be slammed into concrete.
- If you do manage to get him kneeling inside your guard he'll probably be trying to punch you in the face.
- Going for a lapel choke won't work if he's wearing a thin t-shirt or similar.
- Triangle. Safe? Now try it while someone is launching bombs with the arm that's outside of the triangle.

B. Your sport gameplan is double-leg, topmount, choke.

- The wrestling variation of the double often includes dropping one knee onto the mat. So concrete would do a lot of damage. Ask Renzo.
- Topmount. Great, provided you can maintain it against an unskilled opponent. Don't think about upa's & elbow escapes, consider explosive pushing up, covering up, and turning to the stomach.
- From topmount, again there's no lapels so there's no simple choke from that position (although arm triangles etc may work if you can set it up).

So I agree that for the sportive side, it's great to test yourself against opponents that are also BJJ guys, but that isn't the point of the combatives programme, and it won't prove anything about being able to defend yourself. My choice would be to learn the self defense stuff first, then add sportive to it when the 'street' reflexes are already in place.

That way you get the best of both worlds :-)

You have absolutely no grappling experience whatsoever do you?
"EXplosive Bridging" is what every athletic noob does to try to get out of mount. Guess how often it works?

Now, who the **** goes into a situation vs an untrained guy thinking "I'm gonna have to jump guard on this guy..." You jump guard when your opponent is likely to have better takedowns than you do. How many untrained people have better takedowns than me? None.

My default strategy against people w/ crappy takedowns is to cover up, get close, clinch, duck under to the back, RNC.

**Sley** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 5:34pm

Originally Posted by sapateiro

This was discussed a number of pages back. Sport competition is very different to learning self defense. Let me give you an example.

A. Your sport gameplan is jump guard, work for a lapel choke or triangle.

- You jump guard on the street & you'll be slammed into concrete.
- If you do manage to get him kneeling inside your guard he'll probably be trying to punch you in the face.
- Going for a lapel choke won't work if he's wearing a thin t-shirt or similar.
- Triangle. Safe? Now try it while someone is launching bombs with the arm that's outside of the triangle.

B. Your sport gameplan is double-leg, topmount, choke.

- The wrestling variation of the double often includes dropping one knee onto the mat. So concrete would do a lot of damage. Ask Renzo.
- Topmount. Great, provided you can maintain it against an unskilled opponent. Don't think about upa's & elbow escapes, consider explosive pushing up, covering up, and turning to the stomach.
- From topmount, again there's no lapels so there's no simple choke from that position (although arm triangles etc may work if you can set it up).

So I agree that for the sportive side, it's great to test yourself against opponents that are also BJJ guys, but that isn't the point of the combatives programme, and it won't prove anything about being able to defend yourself. My choice would be to learn the self defense stuff first, then add sportive to it when the 'street' reflexes are already in place.

That way you get the best of both worlds :-)

Does No-Gi exist in GJJ? Also do you guys ever use hip throws?

(read O'Goshi is street ridiculously effective. (the No Gi version))

what about hoodies? I can do every single lapel based choke on those, and loop chokes become like 10 times easier.

I'm sorry but I'm basically hearing Grappling doesn't work on the street, it does, hell I took it up because It did, because every street fight I've been in went to the ground or was won by some craptastic magic punch

**willparadigm** · Posted On: 10/03/2009 6:45pm

Street gappling works in the street, tournament grappling works in tournaments, Keep the two separate and you're OK, confuse the two and your most important goal, self defense, goes out the window. The first throw I learned from Royce Gracie was a hip throw and ALL the combatives stuff is taught from a complete no-gi perspective. Once again, you're expressing an opinion about things you don't know, end of story..