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  1. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 1:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    no, they're learning from black belts. and i really believe that if a pair of people or more dedicate their training to these DVDs, they won't be helpless in a street fight.
    They're learning from white belts. Watching a tape then working with your buddies does not equal training with an instructor in an actual BJJ facility with blues, purples, and instructors correcting and giving technical, tactical, and strategic advice.

    If the highest ranked person present is a white belt, and you're trying to parrot techniques on a video, you're learning from white belts.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  2. Stick & Submit is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 1:49pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD - FMA - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro View Post
    So what do you think the most common types of attacks are?
    - Haymaker
    - Aggressively punching
    - Posturing with a view to timing the punch
    - Rugby tackling
    - Grabbing the head with either headlock or guillotine
    - Strangling/punching from topmount
    - Rape scenario from guard

    These are all covered in the programme. If you've worked on the doors much you know that the haymaker/aggressive puncher is by far the most common attack for a man.
    Gun muggings?

    Multiple attackers?

    Protecting your girlfriend or wife and children?

    Home invasions?

    Car jackings?

    Being attacked while sitting down?

    There's no question that there's value in the techniques, but the Gracies would have you believe that there's nothing that you can do if any of the above scenarios happen.

    I recall seeing another video where Rener's advice for a multiple attacker situation was to plead with the attackers and ask if they would fight you one at a time.

    If two guys want your money (or iPhone), I don't think they'll be interested in "waiting in line" to fight you.

    1. Any seasoned instructor knows that to provide 'very tough' resistance to a rank beginner when he's just starting to learn a technique means he'll never learn it properly, or develop the correct flow. I've trained at clubs in Brazil where white belts 'learn' by getting worked over by the purples and browns, and while it helps their defense a bit, they tend to learn much slower.
    I'm not trying to say that a beginner should immediately be thrown into a brown/black belt level rolling session, but as has been mentioned, progressive resistance is bound to make anyone better. To solely roll with and be trained by white belts ...

    C'mon ... you're a BJJ brown belt ... did you get there with a bunch of white belts or solely train with white belts when you were a white belt?

    2. Again, the point is being missed - what is a sportive purple belt gonna do? Work his open guard sweep? Try his omoplata/helicopter mount combo on you? How would that prepare you for the street thug?

    Sadly, a lot of higher belts (not being personal, just a generalisation) have never trained anything other than the sportive stuff and wouldn't know what to do, or even use the guard without getting punched or slammed.

    But some people learn BJJ for self defense, some for tournaments. They may come from the same source, but let's not pretend that one prepares you well for the other.
    I don't believe that BJJ--more specifically, GJJ--is self defense ... it's one part of the self defense equation (and a very important part; not trying to undermine it!), but I think it's dangerous for the Gracies to be giving people the feeling that they're "street ready" after earning their Combatives blue belt.

    And for the record, I think the value in sportive BJJ is that the level of intensity is far closer to the intensity of a self defense situation.

    My final thought is this: train at a high level MMA or BJJ school, make friends with your training partners and high level instructors, and then ask them to train the Combatives with you on Saturday nights with drinks on you afterwards.

    I think you'll get a lot more out of it that way than going to one of these Gracie-Certified "probationary" schools that are storefront traditional MA schools trying to cash in on the BJJ/MMA explosion.
  3. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 3:07pm


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stick & Submit View Post
    Gun muggings?

    Multiple attackers?

    Protecting your girlfriend or wife and children?

    Home invasions?

    Car jackings?
    I understand your point very well, after all I live in South Africa where this stuff is daily occurance, but then we're into the realms of avoidance & awareness/oblique angle attacks/the assess-decide-engage cycle/identifying dangerous or channelised areas/watching for movement correlation/identifying hidden hands/deciding on the passive or active response etc etc. GJJ or any other martial art is after all a last resort. But no martial art can effectively deal with multiple attackers or gun muggings so surely it's pointless GJJ trying to pretend it can? (...waits for the aikido guys to talk about their master dealing with 12 attackers lol).
  4. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 3:57pm


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stick & Submit View Post
    C'mon ... you're a BJJ brown belt ... did you get there with a bunch of white belts or solely train with white belts when you were a white belt?

    I don't believe that BJJ--more specifically, GJJ--is self defense ... it's one part of the self defense equation (and a very important part; not trying to undermine it!), but I think it's dangerous for the Gracies to be giving people the feeling that they're "street ready" after earning their Combatives blue belt.
    I've trained in a number of different scenarios, and they all have their own merits but I agree it's good to have higher belts to help you learn. But a higher belt doesn't always = a better instructor. One example is Mark Walder, he was one of the first 3 guys who made black belt first in the UK, but practically went from blue to brown without any higher belts to train with.

    In terms of the training environment, IMO a compliant 'sparring to learn' mindset like Torrence is much better for white belts than a 'see if you can survive' environment like Barra HQ in Rio. That may be different for a black belt who's preparing for the mundials of course.

    But I totally agree with you that GJJ is only one part of an effective self defense strategy, and it's dangerous to start using phrases like 'street ready'.
  5. Stick & Submit is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 3:59pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD - FMA - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro View Post
    I understand your point very well, after all I live in South Africa where this stuff is daily occurance, but then we're into the realms of avoidance & awareness/oblique angle attacks/the assess-decide-engage cycle/identifying dangerous or channelised areas/watching for movement correlation/identifying hidden hands/deciding on the passive or active response etc etc. GJJ or any other martial art is after all a last resort. But no martial art can effectively deal with multiple attackers or gun muggings so surely it's pointless GJJ trying to pretend it can? (...waits for the aikido guys to talk about their master dealing with 12 attackers lol).
    I COMPLETELY AGREE that no martial art can provide guarantees for dealing with the list of things mentioned...

    Especially aikido.

    You'd be better of working on becoming a sprinter and running the **** out of there... :tongue3:
  6. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 6:26pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    They're learning from white belts. Watching a tape then working with your buddies does not equal training with an instructor in an actual BJJ facility with blues, purples, and instructors correcting and giving technical, tactical, and strategic advice.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    One of the trade-offs of the video series is that you don't get the higher-belt critique, but being able to review the basics endlessly is also an advantage.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro View Post
    AGAIN... The video programme & online testing is not to replace an instructor, it's for those who can't get to an instructor. Everyone agrees that testing online could never replace the interactivity of real instruction.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    If the highest ranked person present is a white belt, and you're trying to parrot techniques on a video, you're learning from white belts.
    well then by that logic, not one of us has given an opinion, because no one is "present" on this thread. and if your rebuttal includes the argument that there's live dialogue in this thread, i'll kindly point to the online Q&A forum on the GU site.
  7. CrackFox is online now
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 6:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzomalan View Post
    well then by that logic, not one of us has given an opinion, because no one is "present" on this thread. and if your rebuttal includes the argument that there's live dialogue in this thread, i'll kindly point to the online Q&A forum on the GU site.
    This is a discussion. It is not the same as coaching a physical activity.
  8. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 8:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro View Post
    AGAIN... The video programme & online testing is not to replace an instructor, it's for those who can't get to an instructor. Everyone agrees that testing online could never replace the interactivity of real instruction.
    Oh go **** yourself. Video instruction is complete Bullshido crapola ****.

    I'm tired of this crappy thread and how it has gone to a fucking worthless crapola "gee fuckwad, what techniques (on that worthless fucking video ****) are good for sticking my head up my ass???"

    So fucking go work out. I don't believe that there are places that don't have any good training. For BJJ, ten years ago I'd have to drive an hour and a half, five years ago, forty five minutes, today, ten. Where do you guys live, Antartica?

    And if you really want to discuss techniques, suck your fucking pink little balls up, and go to Basic and Misc. Fighting Technique Discussion or if it's on a higher level, Advanced Grappling Discussion Forum - Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Sambo, Judo, etc. instead of hiding out here giving a level of legitimacy to fucking video training manure.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  9. lpcemt-p is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 10:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    To put a spin on the topic of Gracie University

    Although Training one on one with a qualified instructor is ideal lets look at things in a different light. What if you work for a steel mill 3pm-11pm? This is the time most schools teach. What if you live in BFE? What if have children and can only train at odd times?
    Does a belt really mean anything or is it a colored strip of cloth that gives someone a false sense of accomplishment? Look at Elvis Presley who paid Ed Parker large sums of money to give him a black belt. The Gracies can do what ever they want. If someone is willing to take every free moment to train will that not improve there martial arts skill? Using the internet as a medium for learning now a days is just like using it to voice your opinion. Have you ever watched videos on submissions 101? Whats the difference. Would you rather have someone pay $80 or more a month for a class they can only attend once a week.

    What makes any martial art legitimate? Its not like they are proclaiming your will be the next ufc champ or you will knock someone out with your mind power. Or do you have a problem with this because it cheapens how you feel about your rank. Rank means nothing in a fight. if you get your neck snaped by a black belt or Navy Seal with no rank, Dead is Dead.
  10. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 10:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lpcemt-p View Post
    Although Training one on one with a qualified instructor is ideal lets look at things in a different light. What if you work for a steel mill 3pm-11pm? This is the time most schools teach. What if you live in BFE? What if have children and can only train at odd times?
    Does a belt really mean anything or is it a colored strip of cloth that gives someone a false sense of accomplishment? Look at Elvis Presley who paid Ed Parker large sums of money to give him a black belt. The Gracies can do what ever they want. If someone is willing to take every free moment to train will that not improve there martial arts skill? Using the internet as a medium for learning now a days is just like using it to voice your opinion. Have you ever watched videos on submissions 101? Whats the difference. Would you rather have someone pay $80 or more a month for a class they can only attend once a week.

    What makes any martial art legitimate? Its not like they are proclaiming your will be the next ufc champ or you will knock someone out with your mind power. Or do you have a problem with this because it cheapens how you feel about your rank. Rank means nothing in a fight. if you get your neck snaped by a black belt or Navy Seal with no rank, Dead is Dead.
    Again, go **** yourself, and while you're at it, blow yourself and stick your head up your ass. Video instruction = BULLSHIT

    Now we did, years ago, get a BJJ vid and used some of it's ideas, with real people in a real ma class. But give me a fucking break, send vids back in for grading? Give me fucking break or give me a fucking blow job.

    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

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