Choked out by Gene Lebell
Posted On:3/17/2009 5:18am
Originally Posted by TEA
If it's "combat judo" or "combat jiu jitsu," shouldn't the only belt be a web belt?
Subtle, but very funny, I like it.
Really my only goal was to help "sport only" judo guys learn how to teach effective self-defense. I saw no need for rank as long as their certification was up to date.
For some odd reason, no one was interested unless I was giving out rank....
Posted On:3/18/2009 11:56am
Originally Posted by TEA
Exactly. Video is an instructional aid, not a replacement for face to face instruction. How can you "feel" the difference between doing a technique right and doing it wrong via video?
i just spent the weekend learning from rickson in nashville, tn. he refused to explain, even in person. he made us "feel" the technique personally with him.
he also placed an emphasis on the idea that sport jiu jitsu is not jiu jitsu. he did not deride sport jiu jitsu, just said it was missing the point of the original art established by his family.
this is my first post here. not sure if i added anything to the discussion, but there ya go...
Posted On:3/18/2009 12:02pm
Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike
Did he say anything about this program?
Posted On:3/18/2009 12:47pm
Originally Posted by diesel_tke
Did he say anything about this program?
he didn't mention this program specifically, but he did say that he would never in his life release a video or a book.
and based on his teaching style, i would guess he is not a fan of this idea. emphasis on "feel" and "connection" and "invisible jiu jitsu" indicates that he would find that style of teaching far inferior to actual, personal instruction.
Posted On:3/18/2009 1:41pm
Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
I am literally just two weeks into my training in BJJ. Before that I had no experience with the art. I chose Ralph Gracie's school. I took alot of time researching various schools and their philosophies before choosing. In fact, I work 10 minutes from the Torrance GJJ Academy and decided against it and now drive half an hour to Anaheim.
I quickly discovered the difference just by listening and watching a few beginners classes at each facility (including Torrance) and taking the introductory lessons at each (4 different schools visited).
What stuck out to me and caused me to avoid GJJ was this...GJJ promotes a style effective against "unskilled attackers". I don't know about you, but if I get into an unavoidable situation, I hope to be prepared for the guy who does know something as well as the "untrained attacker".
So take heart. There is hope for those getting into BJJ. I am brand new without any prior knowledge and I think the right decision was made.
Posted On:3/18/2009 1:53pm
This is just a clear example of the evolution of greed. How many schlubs will buy the videos and "train" on their sibling/neighbor then end up getting their face smashed in during a real fight? I find it a little funny that the Gracie Academy is distancing itself from sport jujitsu when it was Royce competing in the Octagon that made GJJ/BJJ so wildly popular in the first place.
Artemis BJJ Co-Founder/Instructor
Posted On:3/18/2009 2:27pm
Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ
Originally Posted by grapplingidiot
I find it a little funny that the Gracie Academy is distancing itself from sport jujitsu when it was Royce competing in the Octagon that made GJJ/BJJ so wildly popular in the first place.
Yes, but remember there weren't any time limits back when Royce was winning championships, so they might well argue it isn't quite the same thing. The time limit has been a recurring sticking point ever since, criticised by Helio, Royce and Rickson. Like I mentioned earlier:
Originally Posted by Helio, 1998
Here in Brazil now, everybody does jiu jitsu with rules and time limits. How can I fight a man much stronger than I for five or ten minutes if I'm weak and he's strong? I have to wait for him to get tired, so I can defeat him. Who is a better fighter? I, who can make him tap in half an hour, or he, that wins by points in five minutes, because the time-keeper or somebody with a pen says that he scored more points. The winner is the one that wins the real fight, which is what we do.
(Gracie Jiu Jitsu Advanced, Volume 4, 1998)
Originally Posted by Royce, 1995
The problem with me fighting with a time limit is that I am usually giving away too much weight to my opponents, so it takes me longer to wear them down. That's why I'm not fighting in a lot of shows right now. All of them are talking to me, but they want me to fight with a time limit. I weigh 175 pounds. If they want me to fight someone who is 135 pounds, then they can put a time limit on the fight. [...]
I don't like the idea of the judges because if a judge doesn't like you, he might give the decision to your opponent. A lot of judges will get personal. I prefer no time limit. You should fight until somebody quits.
(Black Belt, December 1995, pp31-33)
That's also why he demanded special conditions for his fight with Sakuraba in Pride, though as it turned out, the lack of a time limit didn't do him much good.
Rickson said something similar to Royce:
Originally Posted by Rickson, 1997
Fighting in tournaments is important to me because it gives me the chance to show the effectiveness of my jujutsu. But in order to show its true effectiveness, I don't want to have to concern myself with time limits. If I am going to fight a very big guy, it may be difficult to finish the fight in a short period of time. So before I sign a contract, I want to make sure that the rules are such that they leave the fight in the hands of the fighters. If there is a time limit, it is going to restrict the fighters and could leave the outcome in the hands of the judges
(Black Belt, February 1997, p16)
That same year, Royce clarified his dislike of time limits:
Originally Posted by Royce, 1997
the problem with the time limit..if I drop you in the ocean, and say, "My friend, I'll pick you up in 3 hours." You're gonna say, "Gee, okay, I'll hang around here for 3 hours, I'll float for 3 hours." You look around, there is no land, you gonna float for 3 hours.
But, if I drop you in the ocean and I say, "Goodbye," you don't know if I'm coming back to save you or not, you have to find land. You have to choose a direction, and start to swim.
Now darkness comes, you don't know if the whales are coming. You don't know if the sharks are coming, what animals are gonna show up in front of you, if you gonna get tired, if you gonna find land or not, if there's a ship coming...all those factors come in play now.
So, in the moment that they say, Royce, fight, but the time limit's 1 hour." They know that they cannot beat me, so they hang around for an hour..."Time is over, Yeah! I'm the best, I draw with the champion!"..get the F outta here.
(Full Contact Fighter, 1997)
BJJ Beginner FAQ, Artemis BJJ, GrappleThon.org (BJJ for Charity)
Actually I agree with some of the things they are saying against sport jiu jitsu. The problems that I have seen with people that I roll with is that some of them have spent a lot of time learning, belt chokes, sleave chokes, and collar chokes. Then we they jump into the nogi side they get flustered. Especially when we start adding striking into the mix. Then they get pissed off.
I agree that it is good to broaden the horizons to allow nogi and striking. However, the phylosophy is not what I have problems with. I have problems with them actually promoting people who have no experience, and have never trained with someone who has at least a little bit of knowledge.
The phylosophy is fine. The training is bad. If they were going it like the Machado site, this wouldn't be an issue. This GJJ deal is just stupid. If anyone has ever actually done the Machado online stuff (which I have) you will see the difference. Their stuff is 100 times better than this.
Posted On:3/18/2009 2:49pm
Originally Posted by diesel_tke
I agree that it is good to broaden the horizons to allow nogi and striking. However, the phylosophy is not what I have problems with.
Speaking of their philosophy, they have a series of videos which lay out the theory. Rener makes an interesting point in this one, for example:
Originally Posted by Rener, 2009
People often wonder whether or not they need to learn a striking art to complement their techniques of Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and the answer is no. Gracie Jiu Jitsu is a complete art in itself.
The strategy of Gracie Jiu Jitsu is to avoid getting knocked out at all costs, control your opponent, and then submit them with a leverage based strategy.
The reason we advise against someone learning how to use strikes to win in a real street fight is because if you're fighting someone, who is much taller, much heavier and much stronger than you, your attempt to strike them as a means of victory will put you in the range to get punched. Every time you throw a punch, you're at risk of getting knocked out in return.
So because of that, its important that when you get into a fight, your mindset and your strategy is solid, and you're very well aware of what you want to do. You don't veer on that, so learning another art could possibly conflict with that.
That again sounds like the TMA mindset Rorion exhibited in the blue belt handbook (quote here). After all, one of the big problems with many martial arts is that they simply discount grappling, without realising that the best way to learn how to defend against it is to actually learn grappling yourself. So in that respect, there's a certain similarity between what Rener says above and the typical _ing _un anti-grappling ideology.
Posted On:3/18/2009 3:31pm
Style: Muay Thai & BJJ
Originally Posted by SifuAbel
I predicted this years ago. And this probably isn't the first mcdojoism of GJJ.
"It could never happen because X etc" , they said.
......told you so........
How this helps me; I haven't the foggiest. I was just right, it was inevitable. It happens to EVERY MA. It actually helps you more that its been reported here and you have to deal with it. I'm surprised it hasn't been buried by troll spam, like some embarrassing uncle at a party, and swept under the rug. Nice going bullshido, there is hope for some of you yet.
The difference between GJJ McDojoism and say Kung Fu McDojoism is the Sport and MMA applications.
Your skills either prove your rank, or show you lacking. Point fighting and forms don't mean ****.
Former Gracie Academy White Belt
Current American Top Team Blue Belt
Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
"Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
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