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  1. tcakarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2011 12:59am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    SO...they can get a black belt via video tutoring. SO what>? they can now brag that they are black belt from Gracie online? Who cares. The western ranking system has less and less meaning...impress me with your training and character not the belt.
  2. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2011 4:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, it gets more and more interesting.

    I think there are many schools out there who, instead of finding a competent BJJ-ranked instructor, they go the Gracie U route. Unfortunately, if those schools out there utilize ineffectual training methods then they are just going to go about training the Gracie U stuff the same ineffectual way. I think this leads to guys who are blue belts but can't roll (or, "give game" as I've heard it referred to) as blue belts.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcakarate View Post
    SO...they can get a black belt via video tutoring. SO what>? they can now brag that they are black belt from Gracie online? Who cares. The western ranking system has less and less meaning...impress me with your training and character not the belt.
    Although this is well and good and the only thing that matters, this is predicated on "knowing your stuff" which prospective students typically do not, hence, they are "prospective".

    As always, I break out the medical analogy. You probably don't know crap about the intricacies of dentistry but, if your dentist is a board certified doctor of dentistry (if that actually exists but you get the idea) then you accept the credentials as a form of competency in his/her profession.

    Martial arts ranks provide the same function. Unfortunately, there appears to potentially be a diploma mill out there giving out easy-as-pie doctorates in dentistry. And, unfortunately, someone's teeth are going to get jacked up!
  3. searcher66071 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2011 4:25pm


     Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    I think there are many schools out there who, instead of finding a competent BJJ-ranked instructor, they go the Gracie U route. Unfortunately, if those schools out there utilize ineffectual training methods then they are just going to go about training the Gracie U stuff the same ineffectual way. I think this leads to guys who are blue belts but can't roll (or, "give game" as I've heard it referred to) as blue belts.

    This is what nearly happened to my school. We started and went through the GU DVDs, before I was able to find myself a BJJ instructor. Now I only have to drive 75 minutes each way to train twice per week. It has improved my understanding of BJJ and given me skills as a 4 stripe white belt that I don't think I would have had at purple or brown through GU.

    But GU is no worse than other BJJ instructors that are "handing out rank." We have one within an hour of my house that is a brown belt with white belt skills. It has definately turned into the newest form of MLM(right next to AMWAY).
  4. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2011 6:18am


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    I thought that sparring was a major part of the blue belt first and second stripe tests at the Gracie Academy, or at least that's the impression I got from the aforementioned video. Did he definitely say he had never sparred before, as that would seem to contradict what Rener was saying (unless they've changed the requirements more recently, or they do things differently outside of Gracie University)?
    To the best of my knowledge Ryron & Rener allow anyone to attend the Combatives classes, and once the students get to 4 stripe white they can attend the Master Cycle classes.

    The MC classes are the next level up, and are slightly more geared towards the sportive side of the art, with the inclusion of rolling (but most of it positional sparring against progressively more difficult opponents). As an example, the topmount chapter of the MC took us 2 months to teach and included stuff like elbow escape counters and maintenance strategies.

    So Combatives = defending yourself against an unskilled opponent
    MC blue stripe 1 = dealing with a slightly more savvy opponent.

    I agree entirely with the guys that are saying that the Combatives course doesn't always help you learn to roll. But then it isn't meant to, just in the same way that sportive rolling doesn't teach you to deal with being punched in the face when using the guard. They're different. If someone wants to focus on the sport, then they should go to the guys who teach that best, Barra, Renzos, Alliance, etc etc.

    Personally I've always felt it's good to have a mixture of the two, so my students learn the combatives first, then start rolling when they get to 4 stripe white. This'll sound weird to a sportive club but it's worked well for us.
    Last edited by sapateiro; 9/10/2011 6:59am at .
  5. searcher66071 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2011 7:04am


     Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro View Post
    So Combatives = defending yourself against an unskilled opponent
    Isn't that what Helio first said was necessary to be promoted to Blue Belt? To be able to defend yourself against an untrained opponent.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.
  6. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2011 4:40pm


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sapateiro View Post
    ...I agree entirely with the guys that are saying that the Combatives course doesn't always help you learn to roll. But then it isn't meant to, just in the same way that sportive rolling doesn't teach you to deal with being punched in the face when using the guard. They're different. If someone wants to focus on the sport, then they should go to the guys who teach that best, Barra, Renzos, Alliance, etc etc...
    This is addressed in a different thread, but I'll just post the original set of responses by Matt Thornton from SBGi here ....

    http://www.straightblastgym.com/interview08.htm

    The relevant text ...

    "... Let me explain. What works in "sport" is what works against resisting opponents. Much of what is passed of as to "deadly" for sport, is simply technique which will not work against resisting opponents. Obviously there are some foul tactics (such as biting and eye gouging) which could never be allowed in sport. But, would you really want to go tit for tat with a Rickson Gracie, or Tom Erickson by biting or eye gouging?

    What is the difference between "self defense" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and tournament Jiu-Jitsu. . . .not much. An armlock is an armlock, holding mount is holding mount, etc. There are some things you need to watch for, but I have always seen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Instructors address these. For example, when Rickson teaches a seminar he will often teach the simple shoulder lock from mount position. He will say "for street turn away from his face while you pop this because he may try and claw your eyes", but the armlock is essentially the same!

    My friend, and Machado black belt Chris Haueter recently completed a video series with us titled "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Streetfighting" (featured in our new adverts in IKF and black belt) Do you think Chris taught a whole "different" version of Jiu-Jitsu? No, he simply demonstrated areas that need to be addressed for the street. . .the moves, the positions, the training, the conditioning, the timing. . .its all the same. He also made a good point, you could take a very good boxer, and in a manner of minutes teach him to open his hands, how to strike the eyes, etc, and he would be very effective. However, if you took someone who knows no boxing, and has never done any sparring, and teach him or her just "streetfighting eye boinks" they will still get their ass kicked. They won’t have the timing, footwork, movement, coordination, etc. The same could be said of wrestling, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and all the other combat "sports"."

    The idea that there is a difference between 'sport' and 'street' (aka GJJ) is an illusion. It's all about whether you are training with fully resisting opponents or not...
  7. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2011 1:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by weechey View Post
    This is addressed in a different thread, but I'll just post the original set of responses by Matt Thornton from SBGi here ....

    http://www.straightblastgym.com/interview08.htm

    The relevant text ...

    "... Let me explain. What works in "sport" is what works against resisting opponents. Much of what is passed of as to "deadly" for sport, is simply technique which will not work against resisting opponents. Obviously there are some foul tactics (such as biting and eye gouging) which could never be allowed in sport. But, would you really want to go tit for tat with a Rickson Gracie, or Tom Erickson by biting or eye gouging?

    What is the difference between "self defense" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and tournament Jiu-Jitsu. . . .not much. An armlock is an armlock, holding mount is holding mount, etc. There are some things you need to watch for, but I have always seen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Instructors address these. For example, when Rickson teaches a seminar he will often teach the simple shoulder lock from mount position. He will say "for street turn away from his face while you pop this because he may try and claw your eyes", but the armlock is essentially the same!

    My friend, and Machado black belt Chris Haueter recently completed a video series with us titled "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Streetfighting" (featured in our new adverts in IKF and black belt) Do you think Chris taught a whole "different" version of Jiu-Jitsu? No, he simply demonstrated areas that need to be addressed for the street. . .the moves, the positions, the training, the conditioning, the timing. . .its all the same. He also made a good point, you could take a very good boxer, and in a manner of minutes teach him to open his hands, how to strike the eyes, etc, and he would be very effective. However, if you took someone who knows no boxing, and has never done any sparring, and teach him or her just "streetfighting eye boinks" they will still get their ass kicked. They won’t have the timing, footwork, movement, coordination, etc. The same could be said of wrestling, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and all the other combat "sports"."

    The idea that there is a difference between 'sport' and 'street' (aka GJJ) is an illusion. It's all about whether you are training with fully resisting opponents or not...
    Yeah, I was actually reaching for the same link to quote that. Thank you.

    Just because Gracie Jiu-Jitsu are proven, effective martial arts doesn't give them the right to use the same tired "street vs sport" argument that many of the so called traditional (read: bad training methods) martial arts use.

    I believe I said this before, and probably in this article, but it's just their way of saying "hey, look at us, we are different...also, this is why we charge more..." This is especially true when you consider they probably teach in an area with who knows how many Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belts in the area.
  8. sapateiro is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2011 4:58pm


     Style: BJJ/GJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I realise I'm in the minority in training/teaching combatives/self defense and sportive BJJ but that gives me a real life opportunity to see the differences between them.

    Rather than throwing opinions back or forth let me just repeat that we've been visited by a number of guys that do purely sportive BJJ (generally blues or purples). Whenever they've entered a fight sim class they've come out of it shocked as to how much leather they've eaten. Yes, they may be better at racking up points and win golds in tournaments but IMO this is different.

    Far from 'the idea that there is a difference between 'sport' and 'street' (aka GJJ) is an illusion' there's a number of areas where common sportive practices need to amended - and that's more difficult than it sounds when your jitsu has become subconscious reflex. Things like:

    - Allowing any space between your head & the opponents chest while elbow escaping
    - Finishing an upa and sitting up in the guard
    - Using underhooks as opposed to overhooks in a few positions (ie. guard)
    - Not being concerned about the 'other arm' during a triangle setup

    etc

    A good example is JJ Machado versus Frank Trigg. At the start of the 2nd round JJM does something that would work well in a BJJ tournament, then gets punched in the face until the ref stops the match with a TKO. JJ Machado was world class BJJ but it's a big transition to make.

    There's mention of 'it all being about whether or not you train with a resisting opponent'.

    I completely agree, but I'd add 'it all being about whether or not you train with a resisting punching opponent'. Because after all, someone attacking you isn't going to be resisting within the constraints of the sport.

    Something we need to recognise here is that as the sportive side of the art develops it becomes less and less realistic outside of the sport. Think about the old school tourneys - there was more of a dominant game being played... Taking down to a top position, maintaining or improving it, going for a submission. Now contrast that with the current game... It's often a race to who can jump half guard first, secure a deep half or a 50/50, get that sweep for the points then coast through the remaining time. Whilst it adds to the physical chess that BJJ has become, it's getting further removed from what's practical... Can you imagine being attacked on the street and using your 'turtle guard'? That's why I admire guys like Andre Galvoa, Marcelo Garcia etc - because they push for the submission.

    At the end of the day this debate could go on forever, but we're all going to fall into one of the following camps...

    - I do sport BJJ and I dont care about self defense
    - I do sport BJJ and I think it'll work in self defense
    - I do combatives GJJ and I dont care about tournaments
    - I do combatives GJJ and I think it'll work in tournaments
    - I do both sport BJJ and combatives GJJ and I realise they have different goals

    But this is a completely different debate to the 'is teaching by video effective' one, and for the record I don't think online tuition could ever replace a real life instructor in an art as tactile as BJJ... But it's better than nothing.

    This is only my opinion, and I realise I'm in the minority here but it's an interesting debate that could go on and on...
  9. DKJr is online now
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2011 11:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Combat Cuddling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've always viewed it this way.

    BJJ Self Defense

    BJJ MMA

    BJJ GI sport

    BJJ Nogi sport

    All different focuses, same goal. Submit your opponent.
  10. Team Python is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2011 8:34am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe there can be a balance between sport training and real fighting training, i.e. Vale Tudo. There are some schools that do train for both. However there are schools that don't.

    I have come across students from other schools that will stop by my academy and train in our Vale-Tudo or self defense classes and not have a clue on how to defend themselves against punches from the guard and other positions.

    Yeah I do see a lot of schools that only focus on Sport BJJ only and that is a shame. To me BJJ is a martial art first and foremost and not just a sport. It is okay to train for compeition but there has to be a balance in doing so. You have to be complete in your training and not just one sided.

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