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  1. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 7:08pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by honesty View Post
    OK, so are you suggesting I should drop the clean and go back to doing bent over rows?
    I am suggesting three very specific things:
    -that power cleans are not a suitable substitute for front-to-back rows.
    -that all else equal, a shorter workout is better than a longer one
    -that if you do power cleans and near-maximal squats in the same workout, you should do the former before the latter

    Quote Originally Posted by honesty View Post
    (Dont take this as a sarcastic question, I do actually want to get an answer) why does the SS programme include cleans, and do them on a squat day then?
    I can't speak for the author of that program (Rippetoe, I think?).
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  2. honesty is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 3:29am


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    Fair enough. Thanks!

    If I wish to continue doing cleans, and do them before squats as suggested, should I be looking at doing rows (or another exercise) at the end as well to get those muscles I have not targeted with the cleans?
  3. Lindz is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 6:59am

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    Cleans done properly will slaughter your lats making rows damn near impossible. But most people can't do them properly.

    What's the difference between a fast lift and an explosive lift?
  4. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 10:16am

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitchslapper View Post
    Cleans done properly will slaughter your lats making rows damn near impossible. But most people can't do them properly.
    Static stabilization. If your cleans are taking more out of your lats than they do your legs (or than squats do your legs, for that matter), I would suspect a strength disparity between legs and upper back.

    Quote Originally Posted by bitchslapper View Post
    What's the difference between a fast lift and an explosive lift?
    *looks up reference*

    Whoops. I apologize. When talking terminology, it's important to have one's terminology right, and I got mine a bit wrong.

    In post #6 of this thread, I linked to another thread, where I quoted Rippetoe's Strong Enough. I don't have a copy, but the first chapter or so is up for free on Amazon, and that's the chapter I'm referencing, so we're in luck. In that chapter, Rippetoe refers to "slow lifts" and "quick lifts".

    Specifically, when he refers to "slow lifts", he's referring to squat, press, deadlift and bench press.
    When he refers to "quick lifts", he's referring to cleans and snatches.

    I wish he'd picked better names for these groups, because he then goes on to say that "The slow lifts can all be done fast themselves". Then why does he call them slow? Because they can be done slow. The lifts he's grouped under the banner of "quick lifts" cannot.

    ---

    Anyways, for the purpose of this thread, when I say that "fast lift" (or quick lift, sorry) and "explosive lift" do not mean the same thing, what I'm saying is this:

    A "quick lift", a la Rippetoe, is one that cannot be performed slowly (with proper form, anyways).

    But for what Sakmongkol said to be true - that by virtue of something being an "explosive lift", it has "greater carryover into the sporting arena" - he is logically referring to lifts that can be performed quickly. This includes the "quick lifts" but is not limited to them. As noted by Rippetoe (in the chapter I hope you're going back to read right now), the lifts he's identified as "slow lifts" can be done quickly. To make an unwarranted leap of logic, this is (one of the reasons) why sprinters do squats.

    ---

    "But Russ... Rippetoe says that a slow clean becomes a deadlift. Wouldn't the opposite also apply? Wouldn't a fast deadlift become a clean?"

    No, and this is important. A tremendously powerful deadlift may turn into a variation of a high pull, but it will not become a clean without pulling one's body under the bar. Coordination.



    Anyways, my intent here isn't to be a semantic nitpicker - I'm not even sure that anyone else uses the terms the same way Rippetoe does. Hopefully what I've said is a bit clearer now, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  5. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 11:00am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Yes.



    Why?



    "Fast lift" and "explosive lift" are not the same thing.



    Compare and contrast:


    -ExRx Barbell Bent Over Row


    -ExRx Clean
    Complexes i.e. Heavy bench press then medicine ball throws, Siff and Zatiorsky have discussed it. GSP utilises it in his training.

    For a relative beginner Power Cleans and Chins will work the back enough that imbalances will not occur should pressing volume not be substantially more than pulling volume. I use fast and explosive interchangably, whats the difference?

    A power clean will help increase rate of force development helping taking advantage of the increased limit strength thus far devloped. It will help an athlete become a more explosive athlete and its why I firmly believe Oly Lifts or variations should always be part of an athletes training (even if its within periodization). If recovery is an issue and only rows or cleans are to be present then cleans are the better alternative ime.
  6. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 11:03am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Static stabilization. If your cleans are taking more out of your lats than they do your legs (or than squats do your legs, for that matter), I would suspect a strength disparity between legs and upper back.



    *looks up reference*

    Whoops. I apologize. When talking terminology, it's important to have one's terminology right, and I got mine a bit wrong.

    In post #6 of this thread, I linked to another thread, where I quoted Rippetoe's Strong Enough. I don't have a copy, but the first chapter or so is up for free on Amazon, and that's the chapter I'm referencing, so we're in luck. In that chapter, Rippetoe refers to "slow lifts" and "quick lifts".

    Specifically, when he refers to "slow lifts", he's referring to squat, press, deadlift and bench press.
    When he refers to "quick lifts", he's referring to cleans and snatches.

    I wish he'd picked better names for these groups, because he then goes on to say that "The slow lifts can all be done fast themselves". Then why does he call them slow? Because they can be done slow. The lifts he's grouped under the banner of "quick lifts" cannot.

    ---

    Anyways, for the purpose of this thread, when I say that "fast lift" (or quick lift, sorry) and "explosive lift" do not mean the same thing, what I'm saying is this:

    A "quick lift", a la Rippetoe, is one that cannot be performed slowly (with proper form, anyways).

    But for what Sakmongkol said to be true - that by virtue of something being an "explosive lift", it has "greater carryover into the sporting arena" - he is logically referring to lifts that can be performed quickly. This includes the "quick lifts" but is not limited to them. As noted by Rippetoe (in the chapter I hope you're going back to read right now), the lifts he's identified as "slow lifts" can be done quickly. To make an unwarranted leap of logic, this is (one of the reasons) why sprinters do squats.

    ---

    "But Russ... Rippetoe says that a slow clean becomes a deadlift. Wouldn't the opposite also apply? Wouldn't a fast deadlift become a clean?"

    No, and this is important. A tremendously powerful deadlift may turn into a variation of a high pull, but it will not become a clean without pulling one's body under the bar. Coordination.



    Anyways, my intent here isn't to be a semantic nitpicker - I'm not even sure that anyone else uses the terms the same way Rippetoe does. Hopefully what I've said is a bit clearer now, though.
    Just read the explanation on fast and explosive after I made my post.
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 11:44am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol View Post
    Complexes i.e. Heavy bench press then medicine ball throws, Siff and Zatiorsky have discussed it. GSP utilises it in his training.
    How much coordination is involved in a medicine ball throw, a clap push-up, etc.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol View Post
    For a relative beginner Power Cleans and Chins will work the back enough that imbalances will not occur should pressing volume not be substantially more than pulling volume.
    I'm not talking about power cleans and chins, just power cleans.
    Chins are a legitimate, non-static supportive pull, unlike cleans.
    The OP doesn't have any chins in it.

    I'll note that deadlifts use the lats for static stabilization as well, and the OP does have some of those penciled in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  8. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 12:48pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    How much coordination is involved in a medicine ball throw, a clap push-up, etc.?



    I'm not talking about power cleans and chins, just power cleans.
    Chins are a legitimate, non-static supportive pull, unlike cleans.
    The OP doesn't have any chins in it.

    I'll note that deadlifts use the lats for static stabilization as well, and the OP does have some of those penciled in.
    Um I was just saying that complexes are the only case of power before strength or fast before slow, I agree that cleans should come before squats.

    Possibly but I think this only further indicates why Rips program is much superior to Stronglifts. He accounts for muscular imbalances by including chins but retains the fast lift i.e. cleans.

    I might start a thread in a minute about why stronglifts is such an inferior program for beginners.

    To the OP I'd reccomend keeping the cleans instead of rows but start throwing in some chins as well.
  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 12:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol View Post
    I might start a thread in a minute about why stronglifts is such an inferior program for beginners.
    I'd be interested in reading it. Do you have Starting Strength?
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
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  10. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2009 1:00pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    I'd be interested in reading it. Do you have Starting Strength?
    Yes 2nd ed, I havn't read it for a year or so and I'm not a Rippetoe drone by any means but stronglifts is an average program and the website is populated and even run by distinctly average lifters.
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