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  1. honesty is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 2:48pm


     Style: SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Lifts order

    So, I've been doing the stronglifts programme for a while, and have had to make some changes because of time limitations at the gym, so I've changed down to 3x5, decided to swap rows for cleans, and dropped the assistance exercises for cardio as I want to loose a bit of fat... Anyway, this means my routine looks like this:
    A
    Squats 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Clean 5x3

    B
    Squats 3x5
    OHP 3x5
    Deadlifts 1x5

    Now this is almost identical to the original starting strength programme http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi...inner_Programs but the OHP and Bench have been swapped round.

    So, question, will I be overtraining any groups of muscles with my current programme, and should I switch the OHP and bench round as suggested by SS, or Im I all good?
  2. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 10:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why do a fast lift (cleans) after a slow lift (squats)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  3. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 11:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would never do cleans at the end of a sessions, especially since you've already worked your quads, hamstrings, glutes, and back stabilizers with the squats and your pecs, deltoids, and triceps with the bench presses. Your muscles are already beaten up after doing those heavy sets, to do an accelerated movement like heavy cleans is just asking for trouble.

    I would keep the rows, it's important that the muscles responsible for scapula retraction get worked out to avoid muscular imbalances.
  4. honesty is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 3:54am


     Style: SAMBO

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TheRuss, dunno, is this a bad thing? both SS and Mehdi seem to think its ok so I just went with it!

    Coffeefan, I did ask that question when I first did the switch and was told on Stronglifts that that shouldnt be a problem. I guess it is then!
  5. socratic is offline

    How do elenchus?

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 6:45am


     Style: gah, transition again

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are cleans really that necessary, would you guys think? I recon the majority of the muscles used by the clean would be covered between bench, deadlift and squat.
    Lord Krishna said: I am terrible time the destroyer of all beings in all worlds, engaged to destroy all beings in this world; Of those heroic soldiers presently situated in the opposing army, even without you none will be spared.
    Bhagavad Gita 11:32
  6. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 10:37am

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On cleans in general, see: this post of mine. It also briefly touches on the difference between slow and fast lifts. Once you've read that, read this:

    First off, people get uncoordinated when they're fatigued, and when your level of coordination gets low enough, you botch a lift. The coordination requirement for doing a fast lift is much higher than doing a slow one. As such, I'm of the opinion that you're more likely to get hurt when you're doing a fast lift after a slow one than vice-versa.

    On the subject of power vs. force...

    Exercise | Absolute Power in Watts
    Clean | 2950 (5500)*
    Squat | 1100
    *Lift off to maximum vertical velocity (transitition until maximum vertical velocity)
    -ExRx Power Tidbits

    Fast lifts cannot be done slow because there is an attendant lower limit to velocity where the lift fails. You go any slower and you can't finish the clean. The catch (punny) here is that your muscles don't generate maximal power at the same speeds that they generate maximal strength at.

    In back of the envelope physics:

    p = d(w) / d(t)
    w = integral( f d(x) )
    p = d( integral ( f d(x) ) ) / d(t)
    Assuming constant force:
    p = f d(x)/d(t) = f v

    In English:
    Power being generated at any given instant is proportional to the force being applied, and also to the velocity of the object it's being applied to in the direction it's being applied.

    In meathead:
    You fully load a barbell to do a near-maximal deadlift. You pull on it as hard as you can. It moves, but it moves slowly, because nearly all of your strength is going towards keeping the damn thing from going back down. It takes you a relatively long time to get to the top of the lift.

    You rest up, take off about half of the weight, grab the bar, pull on it as hard as you can, and it practically flies off the floor. You wind up generating more power, but because the bar's flying, your muscles are pulling as fast as they can, but not as hard as they could be at slower speeds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  7. Lindz is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 11:04am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The russ is correct. quick lifts before slow lifts. technically demanding multi joint lifts before less demanding or fewer joint invloved lifts
  8. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 3:14pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Power first except in the case of complexes. The routine looks much better, Cleans will still hammer your back and as an explosive lift they have greater carryover into the sporting arena. They are a suitable replacement for rows.

    You may find recovery becomes an issue by DLing twice and squatting once per week (or vice versa). Perhaps alternate DL with Back extensions/Reverse Hypers/Glute ham raises etc.
  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 3:32pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol View Post
    Power first
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol View Post
    except in the case of complexes.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol View Post
    as an explosive lift they have greater carryover into the sporting arena.
    "Fast lift" and "explosive lift" are not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakmongkol View Post
    They are a suitable replacement for rows.
    Compare and contrast:

    Target

    * Back, General

    Synergists

    * Trapezius, Middle
    * Trapezius, Lower
    * Rhomboids
    * Latissimus Dorsi
    * Teres Major
    * Deltoid, Posterior
    * Infraspinatus
    * Teres Minor
    * Brachialis
    * Brachioradialis
    * Pectoralis Major, Sternal

    Dynamic Stabilizers

    * Biceps Brachii
    * Triceps, Long Head

    Stabilizers

    * Erector Spinae
    * Hamstrings
    * Gluteus Maximus
    * Adductor Magnus
    -ExRx Barbell Bent Over Row

    Dynamic

    * Hip
    o Extension
    * Knee
    o Extension
    * Ankle
    o Plantar Flexion
    * Shoulder
    o Abduction
    o Flexion
    o External Rotation
    * Scapula & Clavicle
    o Elevation
    o Upward Rotation
    * Elbow
    o Flexion

    Static

    * Spine (Thoracic, Lumbar)
    o Extension
    -ExRx Clean
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  10. honesty is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2009 6:50pm


     Style: SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, so are you suggesting I should drop the clean and go back to doing bent over rows?

    (Dont take this as a sarcastic question, I do actually want to get an answer) why does the SS programme include cleans, and do them on a squat day then?
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