Thread: Lifts order
3/06/2009 2:48pm, #1
So, I've been doing the stronglifts programme for a while, and have had to make some changes because of time limitations at the gym, so I've changed down to 3x5, decided to swap rows for cleans, and dropped the assistance exercises for cardio as I want to loose a bit of fat... Anyway, this means my routine looks like this:
Now this is almost identical to the original starting strength programme http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi...inner_Programs but the OHP and Bench have been swapped round.
So, question, will I be overtraining any groups of muscles with my current programme, and should I switch the OHP and bench round as suggested by SS, or Im I all good?
3/06/2009 10:49pm, #2
3/06/2009 11:10pm, #3
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Sherwood, OR
- SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others
I would never do cleans at the end of a sessions, especially since you've already worked your quads, hamstrings, glutes, and back stabilizers with the squats and your pecs, deltoids, and triceps with the bench presses. Your muscles are already beaten up after doing those heavy sets, to do an accelerated movement like heavy cleans is just asking for trouble.
I would keep the rows, it's important that the muscles responsible for scapula retraction get worked out to avoid muscular imbalances.
3/07/2009 3:54am, #4
TheRuss, dunno, is this a bad thing? both SS and Mehdi seem to think its ok so I just went with it!
Coffeefan, I did ask that question when I first did the switch and was told on Stronglifts that that shouldnt be a problem. I guess it is then!
3/07/2009 6:45am, #5
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- gah, transition again
Are cleans really that necessary, would you guys think? I recon the majority of the muscles used by the clean would be covered between bench, deadlift and squat.Lord Krishna said: I am terrible time the destroyer of all beings in all worlds, engaged to destroy all beings in this world; Of those heroic soldiers presently situated in the opposing army, even without you none will be spared.
Bhagavad Gita 11:32
3/07/2009 10:37am, #6
On cleans in general, see: this post of mine. It also briefly touches on the difference between slow and fast lifts. Once you've read that, read this:
First off, people get uncoordinated when they're fatigued, and when your level of coordination gets low enough, you botch a lift. The coordination requirement for doing a fast lift is much higher than doing a slow one. As such, I'm of the opinion that you're more likely to get hurt when you're doing a fast lift after a slow one than vice-versa.
On the subject of power vs. force...
Exercise | Absolute Power in Watts
Clean | 2950 (5500)*
Squat | 1100
*Lift off to maximum vertical velocity (transitition until maximum vertical velocity)
Fast lifts cannot be done slow because there is an attendant lower limit to velocity where the lift fails. You go any slower and you can't finish the clean. The catch (punny) here is that your muscles don't generate maximal power at the same speeds that they generate maximal strength at.
In back of the envelope physics:
p = d(w) / d(t)
w = integral( f d(x) )
p = d( integral ( f d(x) ) ) / d(t)
Assuming constant force:
p = f d(x)/d(t) = f v
Power being generated at any given instant is proportional to the force being applied, and also to the velocity of the object it's being applied to in the direction it's being applied.
You fully load a barbell to do a near-maximal deadlift. You pull on it as hard as you can. It moves, but it moves slowly, because nearly all of your strength is going towards keeping the damn thing from going back down. It takes you a relatively long time to get to the top of the lift.
You rest up, take off about half of the weight, grab the bar, pull on it as hard as you can, and it practically flies off the floor. You wind up generating more power, but because the bar's flying, your muscles are pulling as fast as they can, but not as hard as they could be at slower speeds.
3/07/2009 11:04am, #7
The russ is correct. quick lifts before slow lifts. technically demanding multi joint lifts before less demanding or fewer joint invloved lifts
3/07/2009 3:14pm, #8
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Muay Thai
Power first except in the case of complexes. The routine looks much better, Cleans will still hammer your back and as an explosive lift they have greater carryover into the sporting arena. They are a suitable replacement for rows.
You may find recovery becomes an issue by DLing twice and squatting once per week (or vice versa). Perhaps alternate DL with Back extensions/Reverse Hypers/Glute ham raises etc.
3/07/2009 3:32pm, #9
* Back, General
* Trapezius, Middle
* Trapezius, Lower
* Latissimus Dorsi
* Teres Major
* Deltoid, Posterior
* Teres Minor
* Pectoralis Major, Sternal
* Biceps Brachii
* Triceps, Long Head
* Erector Spinae
* Gluteus Maximus
* Adductor Magnus
o Plantar Flexion
o External Rotation
* Scapula & Clavicle
o Upward Rotation
* Spine (Thoracic, Lumbar)
3/07/2009 6:50pm, #10
OK, so are you suggesting I should drop the clean and go back to doing bent over rows?
(Dont take this as a sarcastic question, I do actually want to get an answer) why does the SS programme include cleans, and do them on a squat day then?