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  1. peeowee is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 4:24am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In the first sparring session it says Doug was surprised by the intensity, and left completely exhausted.
    How much the strikes hurt that we were seeing is something that only Doug knows, but clearly they don't generate as much power as a boxing punch, that's for sure.

    Modern boxing that is, of course. _ing _un is supposed to be bare knuckle, hence the wallbag training. We've seen a change in boxing style when the gloves got introduced, from horizontal fists and underarm out to guarding with gloves close to the face.

    100xomb, no need for a red face, it's just the interweb ...
  2. 100xobm is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 5:43am


     Style: BJJ, formerly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peeowee View Post
    In the first sparring session it says Doug was surprised by the intensity, and left completely exhausted.
    How much the strikes hurt that we were seeing is something that only Doug knows, but clearly they don't generate as much power as a boxing punch, that's for sure.

    Modern boxing that is, of course. _ing _un is supposed to be bare knuckle, hence the wallbag training. We've seen a change in boxing style when the gloves got introduced, from horizontal fists and underarm out to guarding with gloves close to the face.

    100xomb, no need for a red face, it's just the interweb ...
    You don't matter enough for me to care if you tease me. So don't try again.

    Anyway, those two things I highlighted have nothing to do with the point I made. I'll respond anyway.

    1) Exhaustion doesn't imply ability, it could imply a manic slap fight.

    2) Surprised by the intensity doesn't mean the punches hurt, it means there's a lot of them. Speed's important, but power is too.

    _______________________________

    Anyway, as to your second point, wait, what's your point? they still didn't stand like a **** trying not to **** themselves. I conceded that in certain (semi-perfect) conditions a chunner could block a punch.

    Furthermore, "Similar" doesn't equal "the same". Being that you're not an old timey boxer, and I assume not a boxing historian, I'm just going to disregard your point until you do a proper comparison (with pictures)
    ________________________________

    My point still stands though, as you failed to refute it.
    Wing Chun Does Not Hurt.

    Evidence that other arts hurt:
    (intense means it may be kinda upsetting)

    Perhaps the best video on YT
    YouTube - Kyokushin KO by mawashi

    Intense: This one's kinda disturbing
    YouTube - nasty judo injury

    Intense: So's this, and it's an accident to be fair.
    YouTube - Bad injury

    Intense: And this. Spine lock.
    YouTube - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu bad injury, complete fight

    Boxing
    YouTube - Top 10 Most Brutal Knockouts Ever

    _________________________________

    Don't see no "Wing Chun Injury".
    Bro, just go to a judo club and shout out "Ippon Shobu".
    Put up or shut up. We're all tired of chunners.

    ::EDIT::
    My point was (admittedly using extreme examples), that other fights have evidence of injury or at least pain. there is no evidence anywhere (not even in that FQ fight) that chun hurts at all.

    Just sayin'
    Last edited by 100xobm; 8/06/2009 5:50am at .
  3. peeowee is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 8:09am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not trying to tease anyone. I do hear all the points you made, I approve most of them, respect all the others ... like I said, no reason to get red headed.

    As for the modern vs bare knuckle boxing, Wikipedia tells us:

    The introduction of gloves of "fair-size" also changed the nature of the bouts. An average pair of boxing gloves resembles a bloated pair of mittens and are laced up around the wrists.[11] The gloves can be used to block an opponent's blows. As a result of their introduction, bouts became longer and more strategic with greater importance attached to defensive maneuvers such as slipping, bobbing, countering and angling. Because less defensive emphasis was placed on the use of the forearms and more on the gloves, the classical forearms outwards, torso leaning back stance of the bare knuckle boxer was modified to more modern stance in which the torso is tilted forward and the hands are held closer to the face.
    Whatever you might think about it, I think this is a pretty logical development that an art changes when you introduce protection.
    I make a bet that muay thai has changed a lot from the ancient stuff as well, as people now use gloves instead of ropes that inflict nasty cuts.
    This is not to say that it becomes more/less effective or anything, just that it changes, alongside with the injuries and maybe the focus on what strikes are meant to be doing in the first place. Impact is the only way to damage someone when striking with a glove, and if gloves are removed cuts are appearing quicker, but also hands are more prone to injury on the side of the striker.

    As to you remarks about blocking, I didn't even reply to that or comment on blocking whatsoever.

    EDIT:
    This might be an interesting read for you .... Shows the guard quite well.
    Last edited by peeowee; 8/06/2009 8:45am at .
  4. 100xobm is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 5:30pm


     Style: BJJ, formerly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peeowee View Post
    Not trying to tease anyone. I do hear all the points you made, I approve most of them, respect all the others ... like I said, no reason to get red headed.

    As for the modern vs bare knuckle boxing, Wikipedia tells us:

    Whatever you might think about it, I think this is a pretty logical development that an art changes when you introduce protection.
    I make a bet that muay thai has changed a lot from the ancient stuff as well, as people now use gloves instead of ropes that inflict nasty cuts.
    This is not to say that it becomes more/less effective or anything, just that it changes, alongside with the injuries and maybe the focus on what strikes are meant to be doing in the first place. Impact is the only way to damage someone when striking with a glove, and if gloves are removed cuts are appearing quicker, but also hands are more prone to injury on the side of the striker.

    As to you remarks about blocking, I didn't even reply to that or comment on blocking whatsoever.

    EDIT:
    This might be an interesting read for you .... Shows the guard quite well.
    I like research, and approve that you took the time to come up with something we can analyze.

    However I never said anything about boxing changing with the induction of gloves. It's something I agree with completely.

    But what are you trying to say? That there is similarity between old boxing and wing chun stances? Yes and No

    1) The lead foot is not parallel to the rear foot (thus leading to greatly increased mobility)

    2) The rear arm is collapsed to the body, which is fundamentally different (at least in my lineage) to the chun concept of non collapsed arms.

    3) As far as I'm aware, this old timey stance only shows that they block with their forearms (versus using their mitts), and worry about body blows more.

    4) The legs are far wider apart than in Wing Chun, old timey boxing included throws. WC is begging for a double leg (and this is really a huge problem for chun).

    Not to be disrespectful, but what is your point? If it is that they're similar, then I agree, as those points I made are only minor. My point is that wing chun doesn't hurt. I believe the stance limits potential for power generation, as compared to even classic boxing. The stances in the book you gave me, still give room for leaning, pivoting, and going up on the toes, all of which are a no-no.

    Being that one could describe chun's defence as (at absolute best) as good as old timey boxing, but their offence as dramatically weaker, I draw the conclusion that (classical) boxing is a superior art.

    Further, it's simpler to learn and become effective with. There's no time wasted on the forms. It makes you fit and healthy and teaches you to take a punch (which I haven't seen the chun do)
  5. peeowee is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 6:23pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, my second point was that the focus on impact doesn't do something entirely right that is designed for bare knuckle, and that I'd be curious to what would happen to a bout if the gloves were removed. Nothing more, nothing less. My example of old times boxing was just to show that an art will be different if protection gets introduced.
    I didn't really make any comparison between _ing _un and old times boxing, apart from being designed for bare knuckle at the core maybe.

    My first point was that dissing the FQ episode of _ing _un on the basis that the fights got judged on style rather than damage is valid, but slightly unfair if we consider that the muay thai episode did the same, and doug had the thai guy down big time and then had to focus on knees and kicks instead of damage, therefore lost the bout. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Finally, as you mentioned lineage, the place were I train and othe rlineages have a pretty wide stance and loads of movement, definitely not having the feet paralel. But please don't interpret this as "my chun is the real chun" or "the deadliest", as this is far from how it's meant.

    Whether time is wasted on the forms or not might come down to personal preference. I do enjoy doing the forms, but that's just me and my personal reasons and goals in training. Similarly people might consider the wai kru a waste of time. I think it's a rather beautiful and interesting aspect of muay thai.
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