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  1. #11
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    Little Idea's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    <soapbox>
    First off, as far as I'm concerned nutrition as a science is still in its infancy. (perhaps its adolescence) There are still a lot of mysteries to be uncovered. The low-card diets, which are not new considering you can find references to these methods dating from the 1800s, reveal that there is more to the process than just counting calories.

    At any rate, always weigh what someone is telling you with what they are trying to sell you.
    </soapbox>

    Rapid weight loss and peak performance are contradicting goals.

    If you train and eat right your weight will stabilize at a reasonable level, from there you might adjust the routine for specific goals (like making weight for a fight or putting on some more muscle)

    The thing I dont get is that if you do a low carb diet that doesnt put you in keitosis, how do you have much energy for anything?
    At the cellular level, most energy is always going to come from glucose (a carb). When you are burning fat, your body is actually changing the fat into glucose. Ketosis basically means there is no sugar around to burn.

    Ketosis has been shown to lead to fatigue in some individuals. There are no real research yet, but there is some suggestion that long term ketosis can lead to other health problems particularly with the kidneys.

    Your question doesn't really make sense to me. You are asking 'how do you have energy when you have enough sugar that you don't burn fat?'

    Also ketosis isn't exactly off or on. Ketosis is characterized by ketones in the urine. Most people agree that around 90g of carbs a day is enough to prevent ketones (ketosis), but what if one eats 80g, or 70g? What about 0g?

    You shouldn't be worried so much about the ketosis, what you are really trying to avoid are huge insulin spikes. Insulin = fat storage

    Some of this can be controlled to a certain extent not only by watching the amount of carbs but also the type of carb. (Glycemic Index)

    How much weight do you still want to lose? If you are trying to shed a ton fast, your training will probably suffer while you do. Be smart, because <opinion> you might be more injury prone during this period as well.</opinion>
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

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  2. #12

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    Eskimos traditionally ate about %90 meat with very high fat and had almost no heart disease before the introduction of cheap processed foods high in carbs.
    It wasn't soley the introduction of processed foods that caused the increased levels of heart disease in Native Alaskans. The fact that some processed foods are higher in carbs is a coincedence.

    In extreme environments, Native Alaskans thrived on high fat foods because of their bodys' need to burn more calories. American servicemen/women stationed in Alaskan tundra often comment on how their appetite is suddenly so much larger when they live up there. Their body needs more than it does in more agreeable climate.

    Additionally, the native diet was delicately balanced between several types of meats, a huge source being fish, mainly salmon. Fish has very high levels of omega3 fatty acids. These are high density lipoprotiens (HDL) - or good cholesterol. The high intake of unsaturated fats and is a huge contributing factor as to why Native Alaskans could thrive the fatty diet and avoid heart disease. HDL fights LDL or bad cholesterol. Unsaturated fats fight saturated fats.

    Furthermore, omega3 oils also help prevent heart disease by preventing blood clots and relaxing arteries by preventing fatty buildup on artery walls (arteriosclerosis).

    The increased "Americanization" and "modernization" of native society introduced alcohol (to which native Alaskans show an unusually high susceptibility to alcoholism), and processed foods. Processed foods are ALL higher in saturated fats. And worse, thanks to transfatty acids (hydrogenated anything) most processed foods contain double the saturated fat content stated on the label. It's the disruption of the positive balance of fatty acids that has led to heart disease problem. Not carbs.

    Little Idea, you seem very knowledgeable about nutrition. I am kinda suprised you made that statement and attributed it to carbs.
    Last edited by Haksaeng; 1/08/2004 12:05pm at .

  3. #13

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    don'tr train while low carb, not if your training actually involves moving. go moderate carb/fat with high protein intake, and just make sure it's the right KIND of carbs you're eating. make it whole wheat bread and fruits/vegetables, not sugars and the glopy white-bread stuff most people love so much. make sure you're doing some good weight training to up your calorie burning capacity, and try and stay away from sugars as much as possible. buy fresh fruit instead of candy if you need something sweet.

    good luck, man.

  4. #14

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Phrost
    Anything too extreme is not a good idea.

    Moderate your carbs and fats. Up your proteins and vegetables. Avoid processed sugars.

    Hell, if I could only follow my own advice I wouldn't have this damn gut...
    Indeed, moderation is the key.
    We all know that its a "power belly" dude.

  5. #15

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    carbs=energy no carbs= no energy its pretty simple there is no way to remain on the atkins diet and maintain a very active lieftsyle without fatigue problems eat mor carbs

  6. #16
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    Little Idea's Avatar
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    Haksaeng,

    I agree with most everything you are saying, but I have a few comments.

    The main point of this thread wasn't heart disease, I was just making a comment about the assertion that low carb diets will cause heart disease. Recent evidence suggests that low carbs/high fat diets are at least as heart healthy as low fat/high carb diets. Further, the detrimental effect of excess insulin on the heart is well documented, although perhaps not well understood.

    The problem seems to be high fat/high carb, but I believe even that is a simplification and if/as we learn more about the specific details of food we'll learn that a carb is not just a carb and fats are not just fats in the sense that they interact differently with the metabolic processes.

    One thing is for certain, trans-fatty acids are poison. It always pisses me off to see someone worried about their heart and eating margerine.

    One last comment on omega-3 fatty acids. Fish are not the only source of omega-3. Grass fed beef can actually be higher in omega-3 (and at the right ratio to omega-6) than most fish. The problem there is most beef is grain fed (or perhaps cow fed at some point) which have almost no omega-3 and high amounts of omega-6. Relating this back to the Eskimo before moderization, I suspect almost all their meats were high in omega-3, not just the fish.
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

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  7. #17

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't be bothered reading the whole thread. As I always point out, diet isn't hard. Don't believe anything that tells you otherwise.

    Some people love Atkins diet, some people hate it.
    There has never been any conclusive evidence proving its bad. But it was designed for people who want to lose weight by the food they eat. If your exercising its not a good diet to use.

    If your an athlete (and I use that term to include anyone that trains hard, more than a couple times a week), your diet should be high carb, low-medium protein intake, and low-medium unsaturated fat intake.

    If part of your goal is to put on muscle while then up the protein (although its becoming more accepted that its total calorie intake rather than protein intake that results in muscle growth)

    The end.
    The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
    - Pizdoff

  8. #18

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can anybody give me information on fats please? I don't generally worry about them too much, I watch my carbs more. What kind of foods generally have unsaturated fats? Does this still tie in with the 'eating foods that break down gradually to keep your blood sugar steady' idea?

    FingerorMoon?:
    "If your an athlete (and I use that term to include anyone that trains hard, more than a couple times a week), your diet should be high carb, low-medium protein intake, and low-medium unsaturated fat intake."

    Not sure about that; I think that you definitely need high protein (not low to mid), and can mix carbs/fats depending on what you are trying to achieve, lower carbs to cut for example.

  9. #19

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ForM? coming correct.

    Here is a question (I actually don't know the answer) for the eskimos what was their life expectancy? I bet it is longer now, alowing the development of things like heart disease and cancer.

    Any takers?


    These "throw-back" diets piss me off, who comes up with them? Not anthropologists I'm willing to bet.

    Any takers?

  10. #20

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    Not sure about that; I think that you definitely need high protein (not low to mid), and can mix carbs/fats depending on what you are trying to achieve, lower carbs to cut for example.
    Why?
    You need carbs to give you energy to train. You need carbs to help you recover from training.
    If you want to cut up, cut your total calorie intake. Obviously carbs is part of this, but so is protein and fat intake.

    It takes a lot of energy for your body to covert carbs to fat (approx. 25%). It avoids it if possible.
    Only if your eating way too much will it become fat.

    Unless your goal is muscle development, then protein doesn't form that big a part. Its important but it shouldn't form the majority of your diet. Its all gotten mixed up thanks to supplement companies making a ton of money off their protein powders, and claiming you need it for EVERYTHING.

    Randy Couture and Team Quests personal dietician was even on mma.tv explaining this to people, (and posters there were arguing with him!). 40yr old Couture didn't look like he was suffering from lack of protein when he easily outlasted the cardio machine known as Tito.
    (I know wrestling ability played a large part in that match, but so did cardio which diet obviously directly impacts)
    The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
    - Pizdoff

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