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  1. DunkelAnanas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2009 9:50pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Getting back into lifting/alternating lower body and upper body

    Alright, I'll try not to make this another "critique my routine" thread that clutter this board up, but after a few years out of the loop when it comes to lifting, I need a little advice and some pointers. Basically, I am getting back into lifting (with a touch of jogging) to

    A. Lose weight
    B. Get stronger

    Now, I've only been out for a few years but in reading the PT board I've learned so much about some of the mistakes I was making (3x10, isolation, etc...)


    Basically my plan is to lift 3 days a week, jog and/or box (probably or) two days, rest the other two.

    Here's my weightlifting plan (utilizing 5x5 sets for all lifts):

    Day 1 (whole body day)
    1. Deadlift
    2. Squat
    3. Bench Press
    4. Overhead Press
    5. Lat Pull Down

    Day 2 (leg day)
    1. Deadlift
    2. Squat
    3. Seated Leg Presses
    4. Leg extensions*
    5. Leg curls*

    Day 3 (upper body day)
    1. Bench Press
    2. Lat Pull down
    3. Overhead press
    4. Upright rows
    5. Tricep extensions*
    6. Bicep curls*

    (The exercises I asterisked to ask if they are to isolation-y)

    Here are some of the questions I have: Is it a bad idea to have a seperated leg day and upper body day, or is a little isolation alright? Is it necessary that I have an off day between Day 2 and 3, for example do 2 on Wednesday and 3 on Friday, or could I do 2 on Thursday and 3 on Friday? I ask because my schedule might not allow me to get to the gym on Wednesday. Basically, the two days of the workweek I'm not lifting I'm running and I take weekends "off", perhaps doing some recreational exercise.

    As for diet, I'm basically thinking 3 square meals with 2 snacks during the day (one after I eat, probably consisting of a glass a milk and a sandwich or something.) I'm going to shoot for 2500 calories a day and a take a multivitamin. As I am in the 300 lb range, is this too much of a drop in caloric input?

    My doctor has okay'd me for working out, I'm just running this by you guys because you seem to know what you are doing and can show me any glaring problems in my plan.
  2. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2009 10:29pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Weight loss is mostly determined by diet. Boosting your activity level will help a bit, but from what I've been reading, intervals will have more of an impact on your metabolism than steady-state exercise. When you hit up the search function, look for things like "HIIT" and "Tabata".

    Simultaneously getting stronger and losing fat is not impossible, but in my experience, it is significantly more difficult than just doing one at a time.

    Now, as far as your weight training routine goes... it just doesn't really make sense to me.

    Day 1:
    -You're doing deadlifts and squats in the same session. Why?
    -Same, to a lesser extent, with bench press and overhead press.

    Day 2:
    -Deadlifts and squats. Same session. Why?
    -Leg presses and leg extensions are probably unnecessary. With either squats or deadlift, you've probably already hit all the muscles they'd work.
    -I have a strong personal bias against leg curls. For hamstring/glute/lower back work, I'd recommend Straight-leg deadlift or one of its variations. I don't like BB Good Mornings much, but I'll grudgingly admit they're a valid exercise.

    Day 3:
    -Upright rows may or may not be contraindicated. If they bother your shoulders, ditch 'em.
    -On a related note, you're pushing up and forward. You're pulling down and forward. Logically you'd want to pull back somewhere in there to balance off the pushing forward. I find BB bent-over rows difficult to do because of my anatomy, but a DB lying row might do the trick. I've seen a picture of a guy doing them face down off a gently-inclined bench.

    ---

    I suggest you do some reading. Look at WS4SB versions 1 and 3. Look at Stronglifts 5x5. Ask yourself whether you could manage one of those routine templates, basically unmodified.

    After that, there are some more things to try for, but that should do for starters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  3. meataxe is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2009 10:39pm


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    To that, I'd just add that "Starting Strength" recommends doing deadlifts last.

    I'd also recommend that book.
    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
    - Voltaire
  4. DunkelAnanas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2009 10:50pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Weight loss is mostly determined by diet. Boosting your activity level will help a bit, but from what I've been reading, intervals will have more of an impact on your metabolism than steady-state exercise. When you hit up the search function, look for things like "HIIT" and "Tabata".

    Simultaneously getting stronger and losing fat is not impossible, but in my experience, it is significantly more difficult than just doing one at a time.

    Now, as far as your weight training routine goes... it just doesn't really make sense to me.

    Day 1:
    -You're doing deadlifts and squats in the same session. Why?
    -Same, to a lesser extent, with bench press and overhead press.

    Day 2:
    -Deadlifts and squats. Same session. Why?
    -Leg presses and leg extensions are probably unnecessary. With either squats or deadlift, you've probably already hit all the muscles they'd work.
    -I have a strong personal bias against leg curls. For hamstring/glute/lower back work, I'd recommend Straight-leg deadlift or one of its variations. I don't like BB Good Mornings much, but I'll grudgingly admit they're a valid exercise.

    Day 3:
    -Upright rows may or may not be contraindicated. If they bother your shoulders, ditch 'em.
    -On a related note, you're pushing up and forward. You're pulling down and forward. Logically you'd want to pull back somewhere in there to balance off the pushing forward. I find BB bent-over rows difficult to do because of my anatomy, but a DB lying row might do the trick. I've seen a picture of a guy doing them face down off a gently-inclined bench.

    ---

    I suggest you do some reading. Look at WS4SB versions 1 and 3. Look at Stronglifts 5x5. Ask yourself whether you could manage one of those routine templates, basically unmodified.

    After that, there are some more things to try for, but that should do for starters.
    I used to use HIIT when I did cross country, so I'm familiar with it. The coaches also had us doing fartlek training, which is kind of similar.

    Would you suggest I just focus on weight loss/cardio for now, and hold off on weight training until I've cut back on the weight? My doc has "recommended" (read: commanded) I focus on weight loss.

    As for why I'd do deadlifts the same day I do squats: whenever I've done deadlifts, it feels like I work the whole body just about. When I used to lift, I'd go from biggest muscle groups to smallest, and well the deadlift did so much that I did that first. As for overhead press (usually the military press), I used that for getting the shoulders.

    As for bent rows: I knew I forgot something!

    I've looked at Stronglifts 5x5 before. It's basically the same thing the weight training coaches in high school had us doing, except with a 3x10 instead of a 5x5.

    Thanks for the advice. Luckily the Wisconsin tundra has begun to thaw which will allow me to run.
  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2009 11:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkelAnanas View Post
    Would you suggest I just focus on weight loss/cardio for now, and hold off on weight training until I've cut back on the weight? My doc has "recommended" (read: commanded) I focus on weight loss.
    Go ahead with weight training. If you're running a sharp calorie deficit coupled with other physical activity, though, a more reasonable goal may be to maintain your current strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by DunkelAnanas View Post
    As for why I'd do deadlifts the same day I do squats: whenever I've done deadlifts, it feels like I work the whole body just about. When I used to lift, I'd go from biggest muscle groups to smallest, and well the deadlift did so much that I did that first.
    That's a reason for doing deadlifts. I'm still not sure why you'd do them and squats on the same day when they overlap so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  6. DunkelAnanas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2009 12:08am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    That's a reason for doing deadlifts. I'm still not sure why you'd do them and squats on the same day when they overlap so much.
    I like to have overlap. I'm weird that way. Is it detrimental to do both on the same day? If so I would stop, otherwise I'll just keep on keeping on.
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2009 12:35am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DunkelAnanas View Post
    I like to have overlap. I'm weird that way. Is it detrimental to do both on the same day? If so I would stop, otherwise I'll just keep on keeping on.
    I wouldn't say detrimental. I would say this:
    -You're training for strength.
    -You're doing five-rep sets.
    -You'd initially scheduled twenty sets of knee extension exercises for leg day.

    The third point does not fit with the last two. If you can finish twenty sets of five reps with weights anywhere close to your 5RM, you've either got a freakishly flat strength-reps curve or, more likely, you're not using enough weight.

    There's a reason it's called 5x5, not 20x5.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  8. DunkelAnanas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2009 12:37am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    I wouldn't say detrimental. I would say this:
    -You're training for strength.
    -You're doing five-rep sets.
    -You'd initially scheduled twenty sets of knee extension exercises for leg day.

    The third point does not fit with the last two. If you can finish twenty sets of five reps with weights anywhere close to your 5RM, you've either got a freakishly flat strength-reps curve or, more likely, you're not using enough weight.

    There's a reason it's called 5x5, not 20x5.
    Gotcha. I'll consider nixing deadlifts or squats from that day, I'm leaning towards deadlifts because I enjoy doing squats more. Once again thanks for your advice.
  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2009 9:34am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When there are several good exercises that are infeasible to do in the same workout, you don't necessarily have to give up on one of them. Depending on program design, you can switch back and forth (from one workout/week/minicycle to the next). I believe this is mentioned in WS4SB (on a minicycle basis, IIRC).

    Alternately, the StrongLifts 5x5 approach is to do squats every workout and deadlifts in every second workout. "Little" things to note:
    -Deadlifts and inverted rows are on alternate days (lat work).
    -You get to "rest" between squats and deadlifts with overhead press.
    -Your deadlift volume is very low - one set, five reps.

    Not that I'm saying that Stronglifts 5x5 gets everything right, but this is the kind of thing that people tend to miss out on when they're designing their own programs (or "tweaking" existing ones).
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.

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