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  1. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    3/24/2010 1:47am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Russ, is it possible for you to post a short summary of your findings thus far? I'm having trouble mentally collating the various posts, and integrating them into a clear conclusion. (And I'm not saying the conclusion has to be bold or irrefutable - just clear.)
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  2. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/24/2010 10:53am


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Ideally they'd [...] but with ten subjects, that'd put them down at... two people per group.
    ... and that's one of the problems with small N. Aside from the Law of Large Numbers upon which we all depend, there's just no way to design an experiment that carves up confounding factors unless there's enough N to go around.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    I hesitate to say that some questions are too obvious to pay for a study to answer them, what with the whole conventional wisdom that heavier objects fall faster, but it'd just about knock me out of my chair if things were less clear-cut than they appear.
    Once in awhile I see something so surprising that I'm glad they toss money at seemingly obvious questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss
    Palmitic acid is the primary metabolic signal to switch from glucose burning to fat burning.
    I haven't been able to find any citations to this effect... actually, I've never heard anything like this before at all. Is this familiar to anyone else here?
    I think he's riffing on the work linked here.

    Speaking of palmitate, diet and fat burning:

    It has been known for decades that low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets can increase plasma triglyceride levels, but the mechanism for this effect has been uncertain. Recently, new isotopic and nonisotopic methods have been used to determine in vivo whether low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets increase triglyceride levels by stimulating fatty acid synthesis. The results of a series of studies in lean and obese weight-stable volunteers showed that very-low-fat (10%), high-carbohydrate diets enriched in simple sugars increased the fraction of newly synthesized fatty acids, along with a proportionate increase in the concentration of plasma triglyceride. Furthermore, the concentration of the saturated fatty acid, palmitate, increased and the concentration of the essential polyunsaturated fatty acid, linoleate, decreased in triglyceride and VLDL triglyceride. The magnitude of the increase in triglyceride varied considerably among subjects, was unrelated to sex, body mass index, or insulin levels, and was higher when fatty acid synthesis was constantly elevated rather than having a diurnal variation. It was notable that minimal stimulation of fatty acid synthesis occurred with higher fat diets (>30%) or with 10% fat diets enriched in complex carbohydrate. Public health recommendations to reduce dietary fat must take into account the distinct effects of different types of carbohydrate that may increase plasma triglycerides and fatty acid synthesis in a highly variable manner. The mediators and health consequences of this dietary effect deserve further study.
    Effect of High-Carbohydrate Feeding on Triglyceride and Saturated Fatty Acid Synthesis

    Lastly, read Saturated fatty acids and insulin resistance with an eye toward omega-3/omega-6 mediated inflammation.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  3. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/24/2010 9:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung View Post
    Russ, is it possible for you to post a short summary of your findings thus far?
    Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible... this thread is a mile wide and an inch deep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    I think he's riffing on the work linked here.
    That's downregulation of glucose uptake, but I'm not seeing any upregulation of fat oxidation there.

    I also disapprove of his hypothetical graph, even if I'm guilty of doing the same thing. I'd be more comfortable with it if he provided a source for the four-hour lag time between carbohydrate ingestion and palmitic acid synthesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    Lastly, read Saturated fatty acids and insulin resistance with an eye toward omega-3/omega-6 mediated inflammation.
    I'm basically onboard with the inflammation hypothesis - it's the SFA overflow part that's got me thinking. If, as the wording suggests, the overflow hits adipocytes first, then skeletal muscle, then we have a candidate mechanism for inducing selective insulin resistance (in fat, but not muscle). We'd just have to quantify it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  4. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2010 8:23am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    I also disapprove of his hypothetical graph
    I don't mind the hypothetical graph given that it's declared as such. There are times when drawing a picture is the best way to express an idea.

    I'd be more comfortable with it if he provided a source for the four-hour lag time between carbohydrate ingestion and palmitic acid synthesis.
    He provides the source for the four-hour lag time just before the graph:

    The temporal pattern of postprandial lipogenesis was similar in all subjects. [ ... ] Lipogenesis peaked 4.2 h after the meals; lipoprotein-triacylglycerol concentrations peaked sooner, 2.0 h after the meals (P < 0.02).
    Temporal pattern of de novo lipogenesis in the postprandial state in healthy men

    ... palmitic acid is the initial fatty acid produced during lipogenesis; all the longer fatty acids are made of it. I was recommending the papers to which he links in that post more than the post itself.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2010 6:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    He provides the source for the four-hour lag time just before the graph
    *sigh*

    I missed that four times.

    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  6. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2010 11:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible... this thread is a mile wide and an inch deep.
    P.S. If you want me to dredge stuff up on a particular subject, just let me know.

    ---

    I try not to get into this, but... at the gym tonight, I saw a guy:
    -on a bosu ball, round-side down
    -balancing on one leg
    -doing bicep curls

    If only there were chains hanging from his dumbbells, it would have been a WTF singularity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  7. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2010 1:37am

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    Dear Russ,
    I don't know if you still accept random topics of discussion but I have one I'd like to pick your brain about. I've been reading the tmuscle forum, and it seems like the new hip thing is getting rid of the old, time-tested, post-workout shake, and instead move it to before and during the workout.
    Of course, the only people that know about this phenomenon are at the tmuscle and they just so happen to have a series of products designed for this (that costs $250/month!). Are these people really full of **** or on to something?
  8. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2010 7:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky Fried Chokin View Post
    Dear Russ,
    I don't know if you still accept random topics of discussion but I have one I'd like to pick your brain about. I've been reading the tmuscle forum, and it seems like the new hip thing is getting rid of the old, time-tested, post-workout shake, and instead move it to before and during the workout.
    Of course, the only people that know about this phenomenon are at the tmuscle and they just so happen to have a series of products designed for this (that costs $250/month!). Are these people really full of **** or on to something?
    I've done creatine + protein both before and after workouts, mostly just for the Hell of it. Getting them headed into the bloodstream in advance sounds like a good idea. I don't have any research to back that up, though.

    My sentiments on pre-workout carbs are over here. As far as I'm concerned, the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

    My question for you is this, though:
    -Glucose should be less than four bucks a pound.
    -Fancy-ass hydrolyzed whey is maybe eighteen bucks a pound.
    -Creatine is eight or nine bucks a pound.

    Where the Hell does the rest of your $250 go? Are they crushing up diamonds and having you snort 'em?
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2010 2:09am

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    This should surprise absolutely no one, but today I tried mixing whipping cream with chocolate-flavoured milk protein isolate for a pre-bed shake, and it tasted a lot better than the olive oil/flaxseed oil blend. I think I'm going to stick to getting my flaxseed oil from milled flax.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  10. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2010 12:23pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Detest flax oil. Milled flax seeds have a lot of advantages, but I really don't like the texture much in shakes. Here's a classic pre-bed thing I picked up somewhere: no fat cottage cheese + bit peanut/almond butter + milled flax seeds + chocolate protein power.

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