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  1. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2010 9:28am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    My main contention right now is that most of the conventional wisdom about saturated, monounsaturated and omega-3 polyunsaturated fats (particularly saturated) is misinformed, and that they are a good primary source of calories.

    I do not currently have a broad enough base to make nuanced nutritional recommendations*, particularly in the context of activities where glycogen is crucial (like, say, martial arts). If you were a non-superheavyweight powerlifter or a bodybuilder, I'd say to look into a high-fat diet.



    *Working on that, though.
    What are your thoughts on the targeted ketogenic diet? Seems to get around the glycogen problem for martial artists while still being predominately fats.
    Last edited by Sang; 3/11/2010 9:34am at .
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
  2. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2010 12:57pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    might have something to do with your workout ethic, dude. i think most nutritional guidelines are for people who don't understand what a workout actually is.
    I'll bet you a dollar that Butterbean works out even more than I do. Just sayin'... :icescream
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  3. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2010 7:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    yeah, i see that, but my point is that jack shouldn't be used as an example because he isn't like other humans.
    Genetics may cause different people to respond to macronutrients differently, but in this particular regard, he is like other humans, manufactured "consensus" notwithstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    What are your thoughts on the targeted ketogenic diet? Seems to get around the glycogen problem for martial artists while still being predominately fats.
    Don't know much about it, but I've heard bad things about Lyle McDonald and his lack of qualifications. I mean, I don't really have much in that regard either, but I'm working on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  4. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2010 8:21pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post

    Don't know much about it, but I've heard bad things about Lyle McDonald and his lack of qualifications. I mean, I don't really have much in that regard either, but I'm working on it.
    It's hardly an original concept so i think we're safe from McDonald's failings. The general idea is consuming just enough carbs before or after each workout to replenish glycogen with all the rest of the day's carbs coming from vegetables and fruits. The rest of the diet naturally consists of high protein and good fats spaced out evenly through the day.

    I've never gone this extreme towards carbohydrate reduction but i did get my best ever fat loss results doing this plus a high carbohydrate meal upon waking. I also noticed no real difference in fatigue compared to higher carb, low calorie diets i've been on. If i'm ever single i'll give this a shot and let you know.

    I'm really interested to read in the future what you consider an optimal combat sport athlete's nutrition should be like. Most of the advice given out seems to be structured around 3-4 days a week lifting.
    Last edited by Sang; 3/11/2010 8:27pm at .
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2010 11:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    It's hardly an original concept so i think we're safe from McDonald's failings. The general idea is consuming just enough carbs before or after each workout to replenish glycogen with all the rest of the day's carbs coming from vegetables and fruits. The rest of the diet naturally consists of high protein and good fats spaced out evenly through the day.
    Post-workout carbohydrate sounds about right to me. Di Pasquale likes the idea in general, but he did point out that the insulin spike would stop the lipolytic state you get into post-workout.

    Then again, my understanding is that the lipolysis and catabolism are bound together by cortisol.

    Really, the most important thing to figure out in terms of exercise science right now is how to decouple insulin's effects on muscle from its effects on fat.

    The most important issue in nutrition right now is to figure out how to maximize muscular insulin sensitivity and minimize adipose insulin sensitivity.

    But there's another interesting issue that I'd like to look into...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    I'm really interested to read in the future what you consider an optimal combat sport athlete's nutrition should be like. Most of the advice given out seems to be structured around 3-4 days a week lifting.
    I am of the opinion that lipolysis is more important than we give it credit for in terms of mixed martial arts bouts (15-25 minutes plus breaks). I know everyone thinks in terms of glycogen over those spans, but even a moderate increase in the rate of fat oxidation could be a real asset.

    In terms of practical application, though... there's probably going to be some guess-and-check. Find some useful metrics (total power output during Tabata, for instance), make a change, and watch the metrics for a few weeks. It feels to me like the practical folks have outrun their theoretical support right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  6. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2010 7:08pm


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    How much effect does this post workout lipolytic state have on fat loss? I'd like to know more about it if you have enough spare time over the next week to link some studies. The only study i've read on the issue suggests that only 180 calories are burned post workout as a result of an intense interval training session.

    Bahr R. Excess postexercise oxygen consumption - magnitude, mechanisms, and practical
    implications. Acta Physiol Scand (1992) (Suppl 605): 1-70.

    This could add up with two training sessions a day but it seems like a pretty small amount all up to sacrifice the post-workout window for.

    Why do you think a pre-workout carbohydrate meal is a bad idea? If we are restricting carbs to one meal a day wouldn't it make sense to use them to increase your glyocogen stores right before the training session?

    Thanks for bearing with me.
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/16/2010 11:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    How much effect does this post workout lipolytic state have on fat loss? I'd like to know more about it if you have enough spare time over the next week to link some studies.
    I don't have anything about the issue at hand (namely, the effect of post-workout carbohydrate on it) - just some mumbling by Di Pasquale.

    Where do I stand on the subject?
    My post-workout snack is a Blizzard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    The only study i've read on the issue suggests that only 180 calories are burned post workout as a result of an intense interval training session.

    Bahr R. Excess postexercise oxygen consumption - magnitude, mechanisms, and practical
    implications. Acta Physiol Scand (1992) (Suppl 605): 1-70.
    Uh oh!

    -I don't think my university's subscribed to that journal, unfortunately. You got an abstract for me?
    -EPOC is something I'm wrestling with. Upon further reflection, I guess you could divide post-exercise oxygen consumption into three components - baseline (pre-exercise intake), restorative (myoglobin/hemoglobin, up to the level of accumulated oxygen debt), and elevated oxidative metabolism (beyond accumulated oxygen debt).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    This could add up with two training sessions a day but it seems like a pretty small amount all up to sacrifice the post-workout window for.
    Assuming post-workout carbs would stifle post-workout metabolism, which is not a good assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    Why do you think a pre-workout carbohydrate meal is a bad idea? If we are restricting carbs to one meal a day wouldn't it make sense to use them to increase your glyocogen stores right before the training session?

    Thanks for bearing with me.
    See this post (and the ones it's referring to). It's mostly a hunch about insulin "bonking". That said, you have to do whatever it takes to get prepared for a workout - emotionally and mentally, not just physically. In the words of lightly-fictionalized Rex Ryan, you need to have your hit stick up and be ready to kill. If "whatever it takes" includes eating some carbohydrates, then do it and have a good workout.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  8. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 12:19am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    It's hardly an original concept so i think we're safe from McDonald's failings. The general idea is consuming just enough carbs before or after each workout to replenish glycogen with all the rest of the day's carbs coming from vegetables and fruits. The rest of the diet naturally consists of high protein and good fats spaced out evenly through the day.

    I've never gone this extreme towards carbohydrate reduction but i did get my best ever fat loss results doing this plus a high carbohydrate meal upon waking. I also noticed no real difference in fatigue compared to higher carb, low calorie diets i've been on. If i'm ever single i'll give this a shot and let you know.

    I'm really interested to read in the future what you consider an optimal combat sport athlete's nutrition should be like. Most of the advice given out seems to be structured around 3-4 days a week lifting.
    I've been using this diet for about the last year with great results. I wrote a review of a book called 'The Grappler's Guide to Sports Nution' where I got it from. Charles Poliquin, in one of his new $10-a-pop podcasts recommends this type of diet (he calls it a Paleo diet but then takes about eating PWO drinks) for both gaining muscle and losing weight.
  9. honesty is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 3:23am


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    Coming back to the pre-workout carbs, I've been talking a pre-workout shake with carbs/protein and some creatine for the last 2 months (since making the Thread the Russ linked above) and from a none scientific feel these have been beneficial.
    "Chance favours only the prepared mind."

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  10. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 8:23am


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    Thanks for answering my noob questions Russ, it's helping me wrap my head around this complicated topic. I think i need to do another degree first to be able to design my next diet plan. Maybe i should just stop being such a cheap arse and buy the grappler's guide to sport nutrition . At least I've tripled my fish oil supplementation since reading that link you posted so this hasn't been a waste of time. As someone with a family history of heart attacks i found that blog extremely interesting.

    In regards to that study, i read it 5 years back when i first read Mcdonald's stuff so i'd be interested to re-read it too. I still have about the same lack of understanding of EPOC as i did back then.
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
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