6/12/2010 1:58pm, #161
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Washington State
- BJJ, Unauthorized Judo
In the end, sadly, it was just money and marketing. Nothing more, nothing less. Thanks for the info, keep it coming, I like hearing these types of stories. It helps paint a clearer picture regarding the martial art I perform and the top people in it, for good and bad. Better the truth then someone else's version of the truth regardless of how many myths get dispelled.
Hope the health issues clear up and you can get back on the mats. We need guys like you helping out the shitty guys like me with their Judo!
6/14/2010 6:33am, #162
Now, for the next in our series ....
Good Faith/Bad Paper
As we type this I am looking at two certificates that hang in my living room. One proclaims me to be a 7th dan in Jujitsu, the other proclaims me a "menkyo kyoshi" in Bojutsu. So, the question is, do I legitimately hold those ranks? After all, is this not the primary purpose of the people here, and the reason for the existence of Bullshido? Well, before you say yes or no, perhaps we need to reason together for a bit.
There is no question that I hold the ranks the papers proclaim. I took the test for them, I paid for them, I did not do a Matt Morton and photoshop them, I earned them, therefore I have the rank, right?
But, what if I tell you the papers were issued from Juko-kai international? We know Juko-kai is rife with false claims and outright lies about a great many things. So because of that, does it invalidate these papers on their face? Well, perhaps not. The ranks these papers bestow upon me, are ranks in systems within Juko-kai itself. To be sure, they do not connect with legitimate linage in Japan, but what of it? If I am a Juko-kai dojo, and I make no claim other than being a Juko-kai dojo, then the claims I make about the ranks are legitimate claims, right?
Of course, what if we learn that Juko-kai themselves kicked me out years ago, and demanded I return all ranking papers, under actual threat of sending people to my dojo to collect them? What does that do to my claim? Oh, and what of the hundreds of people who worked their tails off to earn rank, passed and have the papers, if they claim to be a black belt, and they have the papers, are they being deceptive if they claim rank they clearly have papers for?
What if none of us know the back story about Juko-kai?
Sadly the above is not unique. There have been dozens of groups over the years that fall into the exact same situation. I have known many honest and hard working martial artists, who honestly believe what they are being told. They are crushed when they learn they have "been had," and of course if this person is sincerely looking to correct the problem, we should help them as best we can.
This is the reason the validation process was created in the first place. Of course this only applies to Judo ranks. I could make a very strong case that ranks issued by "systems" unique to Juko-kai are what they are. The more important question there is what is the background of Juko-kai so we can place the true value of the papers in a correct context.
The Judo papers issued by USMMA under Phil Porter, worthless save in other USMAA schools. They are dojo promotions as we have spoken of before. They do not follow the IJF's ranking/leadership guidelines, and as such are not valid in an international Judo context. The same is true about judo papers from any other non IJF validated source. This does not mean the person holding those papers is automatically a fake, fraud, or someone without skills and talents. It simply means their papers are not accepted by the NGB here in the US.
For all the heat it takes about rank, I do find it interesting that only USJA has a validation process in place to correct this situation for sincere judoka who to not have acceptable rank. I suggest people go to the USJA web site and read about how they handle the situation.
Still, let us make sure we firmly grasp a key concept here. Bad Paper does not always equal a bad person. A person claiming rank they have paperwork for, is not always a "bullshido" artist, but rather someone telling you what they have. There are very few martial arts like Judo which has such a world wide ranking system in place, which makes Judo claims a very unique situation. As such, when claims of Judo rank are made, its easy to begin the process of correction.
What a person does with the knowledge, tells us if they are Judoka or Bullshidoka."Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
6/14/2010 5:52pm, #163
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Bonners Ferry, Idaho
- Kodokan Judo
Great post, Mark. Thanks for taking the time to put it together and present it here.
6/15/2010 4:51am, #164
With regards to the menjo "Menkyo Kyoshi"
First up, please don't see my comments and experience with koryu menjo as having a dig at you personally because that's not the intent.
Secondly, if I'm teaching you to "suck eggs" slightly with my post then I apologise.
Prior to the introduction of the kyu/dan system and very much before the Meji Restoration, martial systems were not "ranked" as they are commonly today, the class structure of Japan at the time often determined what a particular individual could learn and to what level. A good example of this would be the lower class foot soldiers would not be taught how to use the long sword (because of their class) however they would learn the short sword, spear etc.
Now, "Kyoshi" is an honorific warrior title which could only be bestowed upon those of Samurai stock, it did not carry any rank significance in that same way as "sensei" (although because of its common usage people associate it with rank, experience, seniority)
A koryu-ryu-ha issuing a menjo under the menkyo system would not use "kyoshi" or any other such title in association with a specific rank. If the head of the ryu wished to bestow a senior title upon a particular student this would be done entirely separate to that individual's skill level (notice I didn't say "rank").
This is where things become somewhat complicated because it is easy to confuse a person's standing within a martial ryu-ha and that same person's physical ability and the authority he holds within the ryu to transmit the syllabus on to others within the school. "Menkyo Kaiden" meaning that person has the full authority to transmit the entire school's syllabus on behalf of the head of the Ryu.
What I'm saying is that a menkyo menjo is not a rank, but a written authority from the school providing it's holder to transmit the techniques to a given level and no further, Kyoshi is merely a title bestowed by someone of senior standing upon another individual which places that person within a particular standing within a group, it is neither a rank or an authority to teach..
Dave"To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".
6/15/2010 5:04am, #165
I know, and I agree with you. However, in the context of my post, I do have such a paper from Juko-lie and that is what it says. We can take the words apart, although its more fun to actually read what is on the paper itself; but the core point is if I say I have this paper from Juko-kai, that in and of itself is not a false statement because I really do have said paper.
The idea that words have meaning, and it is VERY odd that a group has decided to change the meaning and give it a totally different one, thats a different issue, and one I will tackle another time..."Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
6/15/2010 5:19am, #166
..Also to add, it is very odd for a gendai martial farce to use a koryu menjo system. You mention the Juko crowd and it all makes perfect sense mate."To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".
6/24/2010 9:22pm, #167
Damn Coach. I cant believe your creds came into question. I mean, its Tripp! This is kinda funny in a small way. This just seems like one of those "Internet Facts" where an average person would laugh and go "How stupid are you?"
6/24/2010 10:37pm, #168
his thesis was, "if you build sidewalks, people will use them".
there was a lot more about it than just that, but his general thesis was about sidewalk usage in areas where there are a lot of sidewalks.
he explains this research in a subject that seems like a huge "duh" like this.
"if it's so obvious, why don't we have a scientific proof for it?" "well, because it's to obvious to study" "but if you want govm't funding for something there has to be a study" "but it's just so obvious"
get it now? mark tripp's creds are pretty obvious just by looking at him work. but, because he is making some claims, even if the claims are just implied by his actions as an instructor, they still need to be proven at some point, just as a formality for future reference.
6/25/2010 6:14am, #169"Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC