Thoracic rotation and MMA punching

[MrBadGuy]

Maybe you can PM it to me then. I actually learn really easily from that kind of mysto-speak.

Or post it here so I can read it too.

[WhiteShark]

Here is as close as I can get to explaining this over the internet. Get ready to have co-workers looking at you like you are crazy!

I really think this is something that has to be felt so I'm going to try to explain my take on this in relationship to an exercise that you can do yourself. Caveats: my punching power isn't that great but it has been improved dramatically through training. Later I'll write about kicking power which is exceptional for my size.

The best exercise I've ever done for learning the feel of the "right" power pathway is (ironically) horse stance chambered air punching. It strikes a nice balance between the incredibly obscure "internal" generation of Sanchin and the easy but often inaccurate training of pounding the heavy bag.

First Horse stance:
Why? because it is a pain in the ass (literally) if you are doing it right you glutes will get sore. Start with your feet 1.5x your shoulder width apart. Then drop your weight so your knees are bent but pointed forward. Deep kata style stances are NOT what you want. Now tuck your butt in and tighten your anus. Your back should be straight up and down. Your hips should be relaxed. This guys legs are as deep as you should ever be:

Now for your hands:
This is a little more common. Extend your weak arm straight out in front of your shoulder and pull your dominant hand back into reverse punch position. Details: your extended arm should have a slight bend at the elbow and your fist should be centered on your body at about shoulder height. Your retracted fist should be in your armpit. Not totally jammed in there but at about nipple level. Next your shoulders should NOT be square. The shoulder of your front hand should be at least a fist length ahead of your rear shoulder. A good way to check this is look down at your retracted hand. The knuckles of that hand should be just behind the shoulder joint of your extended arm's shoulder.

HIPS:
With one hand extended and one back the hip on your rear hand side should naturally roll back. Let it! Your rear shoulder is behind your front shoulder and to get power out of your whole body your rear hip needs to go back too. I'd say about 30 degrees of pelvic twist away from pointing straight ahead.

Now feel for any really stressful spots. If your knees hurt you may need to turn your toes out a little more. This is very important and a big part of why a lot of karate sucks. They force you into picture perfect kata positions. What you really want is relaxed tension throughout your whole frame.

Punch by flicking your back hip forward and switching the position of your hands. Your arms should only be tense at the start and finish of the movement. Stop the punch when your arm is 95% extended. Your hands come an instant behind your hips. If you do this right it should be hard not to throw a punch. Keep your head level and your neck relaxed. When I do this for the first time in the day I usually crack my own back.


Now lets talk about how this feels. You should feel torque through your whole body. The leg on the side that is striking should feel strained when you start and relieved when your hand stops. If you let your hand get floppy it should feel like you could pop your elbow. When done barefoot I will start to feel twisting pressure in the skin on the bottom of my big toe and ball of the foot.

[WhiteShark]

Now lets talk about how this feels. You should feel torque through your whole body. The leg on the side that is striking should feel strained when you start and relieved when your hand stops. If you let your hand get floppy it should feel like you could pop your elbow. When done barefoot I will start to feel twisting pressure in the skin on the bottom of my big toe and ball of the foot.

This is the most important part of what I wrote and it kinda gets lost. Let me reiterate that I don't want you to start fighting this way or even do this excercise regularly. Trying this should let you feel what I am talking about though and since I don't know how you punch I can't talk directly to what you are feeling.

This drill is something I learned to teach me about the correct feeling in my body of hard punching. Every time you throw a cross you should feel these same indicators in your feet hips and shoulders.

[Matt Phillips]

Haven't gotten around to adding the rest of the vids yet, but I did want to post this:
WT PSI
200 1081
175 1023
160 987
147 951
135 923
126 909

These are world records by weight class for punching power. I haven't shown every weight, but I wanted to make a point.

Notice that the power of the 126lb boxer is about 90% that of the 200+.
This speaks volumes about the role of mechanics (not weight or muscle) in producing power. Taking punches is another story.

Also note that Randy scored 500 psi on fight science. The record for females at 102lbs is 724 psi(!)
http://www.boxingassociated.com/records.htm

just FYI

[Dempsy Roll]

I don't really see what the difference is. Rotation is rotation. As long as it's in the same direction and at the same time, for the purposes of kinetic linking, it shouldn't matter.

This is how I describe it: Imagine a disk rotating at a set speed. This disk has an arm sticking out of the side of it, and the arm moves at a speed of, let's say, 5mph relative to the level below it (the ground). Now let's set another disk rotating on top of the first, this time with the arm moving at a speed of 3mph relative to the level below it. However, disk 2's arm is moving at a speed of 8mph relative to the ground - faster than disk 1. Now swap out disk 1 for the rotation of the hips, and disk 2 for that of the shoulders. You can still generate more force with the rotation around one point than you could if you were just arm-punching, but to really maximize power you need to utilize every point of rotation that you can, from the ground up. The feet, the hips, the shoulders. All of it.

That said, I can kind of see how you could call it sloppy or inferior technique if you're using rotation of the shoulders over that of the hips in a situation in which both couldn't be utilized properly, for no other reason other than that the power coming from hip rotation is coming primarily from the legs, whereas in shoulder rotation the power is from the abdomen/core muscles, which are typically weaker than the legs.

So, as with most issues between boxing and MMA, it's pretty much apples and oranges. In boxing you're pretty much always able to rotate the hips (and shoulders) and use 'optimal' punching technique. In MMA, that's not always the case. You might have to be standing in more of a square stance, to fend off takedowns, so that you're less able to use the hips. You might be in the clinch, where shoulder rotation is difficult and you have to rely on turning your hips. You might be bent over a downed opponent or in mount, where you can't rotate your hips, so you have to stick to shoulder/abdominal rotating. Ect, ect.

[Hesperus]

Why does this whole thread sound like no one already knows what kinetic linking is?

[WhiteShark]

Why does this whole thread sound like no one already knows what kinetic linking is?

I read about it before posting my stupid drill but still think it is easier to feel than explain. If you want to take a shot at it go ahead.

[Hesperus]

I hate to say it, but the original Fight Science did a pretty good job of explaining it, IIRC.

And the declared ninjitsu the deadliest martial art. Goddamnit.

[Matt Phillips]

Why does this whole thread sound like no one already knows what kinetic linking is?

I think the take home message from the PSI record I posted earlier is that kinetic linkage is even more important than previously thought. 75+ pounds gets the heavyweight about a 10% boost in punching power over the lightweight. It's almost all body mechanics and technique.

[Hesperus]

You're right, kinetic linking pretty much is everything.

Without it, you have Wing Chun.