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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2009 9:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    How about you tell us the benefits you were told/perceive to get from holding a static horse stance for a long period of time?

    Mindfulness.


    ... that's it, I swear!
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2009 9:15pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    ok, i'll go with this.

    my sifu has always advocated both static horse and squats, old skool methods as well as weights.

    we were told that static horse (we're talking about 5-10 minutes maximum would give us a stronger base and allow us to more effectively use the horse stance in both forms and fighting.

    the main fighting applications involve dropping one's hips and bodyweight (not necessarily into what looks like a low horse stance.)

    one can be a response to a hip throw attempt, and a way to set up a throw of one's own.

    another is when certain overhand techniques are used, it can be beneficial to drop the body weight into these strikes, and having a good horse stance seems to help. i actually find it useful quite often, but find it hard to describe.

    the closest comparison i can find in boxing would be the "stepping" jab, where a forward step is taken with the jab, and the jab hits at the same time as the weight drops on the front foot, making the punch stronger. dempsey explained it better than i, but maybe jack knows what i mean.
    Endurance.

    Gotcha.

    Next.
  3. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2009 10:12pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NJM View Post
    Is it the consensus that squats are more effective isometric training than horse stances, and offer the same benefits but more so, and that the horse stance builds nothing a squat can't, etc?
    Holding a static horse stance is an isometric exercise, unlike squats. It serves the same function as the "Wall Sit" in the videos at the beginning of this thread, which is to say that it's a pre-hab (portmanteau of preventative and rehabilitation) exercise for athletes who perform squat-like motions (fencers, skiers, wrestlers, &c). It's useful whether or not one also does powerlifting squats, which serve a different purpose. There is no reason of which I am aware why anyone would hold such a position for more than 5 minutes.

    In my experience, they're introduced early in one's CMA education, after which the training progresses to plyometric movements that include squatting postures (drills and forms). Holding the static pose for a few minutes a few times a week is enough to help prevents injuries during these exercises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    dempsey explained it better than i, but maybe jack knows what i mean.
    There are two kinds of jin that involve unlocking the knees and "falling" into a stance (horse or bow), one for striking (functions like the Dempsey falling punch) and one for pulling (great for arm drags). Oddly enough, I demonstrated both to Scott Larson at the last TD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    it's not super exxagerated, but the hips are a little tucked.
    I hate to pick at this scab, but there's something important in the wording here. If I say to someone "tuck your hips," he's going to tense his glutes and roll his pelvis forward. This is not right at all. The trick, and it's quite difficult, is to build enough flexibility in the kua that one's hips aren't pulled back by lowering down. In my experience, supplemental daoyin/yoga are needed to make this work for those of us who grew up with chairs and without squat toilets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i've been doing a chi gung set from a book of tim cartmel's, that you might find interesting, actually. we should hang.
    Totally.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  4. Scott Larson is offline
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    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 10:50am


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    There are two kinds of jin that involve unlocking the knees and "falling" into a stance (horse or bow), one for striking (functions like the Dempsey falling punch) and one for pulling (great for arm drags). Oddly enough, I demonstrated both to Scott Larson at the last TD

    Thank you, that demo was very helpful.
    ________________________________________

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  5. NJM is offline
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    Putting the "ow" back in "flowery technique"

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 4:34pm


     Style: CMA, MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Endurance, leg strength, "rootedness".
  6. TenTigers is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 6:03pm


     Style: Hung Kuen, Jook Lum SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    if you are going thighs parallel, the hips need to "roll out" a little bit-otherwise it is unatural. When people read in books, that the hips need to be "tucked under" it is only to prevent them from sticking their butts out like they're squatting to go to the bathroom. People-usually those without real training mistake this for tucking in too much. You will see this very often in tournaments where guys from poor kempo schools train. Schools from "Saholin Kempo" offshoots from Vilari etc usually are pretty clueless when it comes to proper traditional training methods, such as structure, stance, power generation and breathing.
  7. TenTigers is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 6:55pm


     Style: Hung Kuen, Jook Lum SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The other thing that horse trains is the proper mindset required to learn TCMA. I know some say this is dangling a carrot, or fleecing the student, but not all Sifus are out there in big schools, teaching for money. The awareness of one's own body and structural alignments are first taught during the horse training. This is why it teaches the student to "root." It has nothing to do with sinking into a horse stance. If you understand body alignment and structure, you can root from any position. The horse teaches the mind/body connection (hate to sound cliche' but cliches develop usually because they are common beliefs that are repeated due to their inherent wisdom) The mental discipline and work ethic is very important. Although there are many skills that can be learned in a short amount of time, like kicking, punching, etc, there are also skills that require an investment over a period of time. This is not understood by beginners, and only after spending the time, do people actually,"get it." Then they realize why their Sifu spent all that time training them in what they deemed meanungless bullshit.
    Last edited by TenTigers; 3/04/2009 7:32pm at .
  8. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 2:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    The other thing that horse trains is the proper mindset required to learn TCMA. I know some say this is dangling a carrot, or fleecing the student, but not all Sifus are out there in big schools, teaching for money. The awareness of one's own body and structural alignments are first taught during the horse training. This is why it teaches the student to "root." It has nothing to do with sinking into a horse stance. If you understand body alignment and structure, you can root from any position. The horse teaches the mind/body connection (hate to sound cliche' but cliches develop usually because they are common beliefs that are repeated due to their inherent wisdom) The mental discipline and work ethic is very important. Although there are many skills that can be learned in a short amount of time, like kicking, punching, etc, there are also skills that require an investment over a period of time. This is not understood by beginners, and only after spending the time, do people actually,"get it." Then they realize why their Sifu spent all that time training them in what they deemed meanungless bullshit.
    Shut.
    Up.

    Work ethic by doing useless exercises? Or the work ethic of taking the time thinking up irrational and idiotic rationalizations for useless exercises and outdated physical training that you only believe because of its pseudo-mystical-Asian-ness?
  9. NJM is offline
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    Putting the "ow" back in "flowery technique"

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 3:22pm


     Style: CMA, MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Horse Stance is not a useless exercise.
  10. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 4:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From the Original Post:
    We've had countless threads arguing over the utility of the horse stance. I would very much like this not to be another one.
    Ten, stop talking. Start your own thread if you want to ramble.

    NJM, I agree.
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