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  1. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 10:12pm

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dempsy Roll View Post
    So it seems to me that the spinning back kick is more or less a spinning side kick without the full extension. Since they're both 'linear' movements with the force pushing the opponent straight back, the spinning portion is more or less the same motion of kicking the hips back quickly as you turn (see: 0:51 in the Chuck video). From there it's pretty much a matter of distance. You either kick your foot back a little bit and catch them in close or as they're coming in with a spinning back kick or you continue the movement, extend your leg and finish turning your hips over, and hit them with a spinning side kick as you move forward or as they're moving away.

    You could argue that a spinning side kick is 'properly' done with the kicking leg chambered and at a 90 degree angle to your planted leg (parallel to the ground), but that doesn't really make any sense. Since you're using the forward momentum and rotation of your hips to give you your additional power you're going to want to keep everything as close to your center of mass as possible until the last second. The tighter everything is, the faster you spin - that's why figure skaters pull all of their limbs in close when they want to spin like some kind of crazy bladed dervish. Or for a closer to home and slightly more violent comparison, think of the spinning hook kick. You don't bring your kicking foot sweeping up from the floor, you keep it chambered until you're further through the rotation.
    No. First, this thread is about jump back kicks, but the difference between a back kick and a turning side kick are the same, regardless of distance. With a back kick, jumping or not, the kicking foot and knee travel under the body and you thrust your hips/ass straight towards your opponent. With a turning side kick, jumping or otherwise, one turns, chambers the kicking leg to the side, and then turns the hips as one extends the kick (see of the jump turning back kick and note how the knee comes up to the side rather than under the body - also in the Chuck video he starts off demonstrating a C turning side and then demonstrates a B+ back kick). Compare the first video I posted of David Loiuseu taking out Charles McArthy with a jump back kick to the one of the ITF guy taking out his opponent with a jump turning side kick and you can see that it is not the distance that makes these two kicks different, it's the way in which the knee either travels under the body as one thrust back with the hips or off to the side as one turns the hips.
    Last edited by TEA; 3/05/2009 7:25pm at .
    Mushi mo atsui hodo
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    Originally Posted by chuey
    ...Well **** if that isn't the most anti-Mr. Miyagi **** I have heard in ages.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, but
    Three rights make a left.
  2. Liam Cullen is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 4:31am


     Style: MMA, TKD

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    ^^ excellent points.
    I think it's also worth noting that the angle at which the leg comes from also has an impact on how the attacker will be standing after the kick. If you look at the back kick (as shown by Loiuseu) after the impact the attacker has his back to his opponent. With the spin sidekick the attacker finishes side on to his opponent.
  3. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 11:14am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
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  4. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 9:22pm

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Good point about protecting the nads.
    Mushi mo atsui hodo
    Mushiatsui

    Originally Posted by chuey
    ...Well **** if that isn't the most anti-Mr. Miyagi **** I have heard in ages.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, but
    Three rights make a left.
  5. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 12:06am

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Oh, and just a side note: I know I've mentioned this before, but I really hate the combination of "spinning" and "back kick" when describing the technique. To me, based on the terminology that I've been brought up with, spinning techniques are circular techniques (e.g. spinning backfist, spinning heel kick) and the back kick is a linear technique. As illustrated in the Chuck vid (although I think he may be throwing a less than honest attempt at doing a good turning side kick just to illustrate the point), spinning while executing a back kick throws the force of the kick off and delivers a glancing blow, if it hits at all . A good back kick should be delivered wit as little spin as possible. Using the term "spinning back back" just confusese the **** out of students when you try and teach them a fundamentally linear tecnique.

    OK, sorry for the rant. Rant mode off.
    Mushi mo atsui hodo
    Mushiatsui

    Originally Posted by chuey
    ...Well **** if that isn't the most anti-Mr. Miyagi **** I have heard in ages.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, but
    Three rights make a left.
  6. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 9:23am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    Reasonable point. By this definition, the Thai roundhouse is a 'spinning' technique. I think the SBK is called such because you have to move your head in the same way as in spinning techniques to keep your eye on the target.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 12:58pm

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    By this definition, the Thai roundhouse is a 'spinning' technique.
    Well, it certainly is a circular rather than a linear technique. In Korean the 돌려 (doryo) in 돌려 차기 (doro ch'agi - i.e. round kick or roundhouse kick - depending on your translation) is from the verb 돌리다 (dori da), which can be translated as "turn, revolve, spin, wheel, whirl, or rotate." In Japanese, the し in し蹴り is similarly derived from the Japanese verb す and has the same meaning as 돌리다.

    As for the spin kick, in Korean it is called a 뒤돌려 차기 (dwi doryo ch'agi), which litterally translates as "back round kick" or "back spin kick," depending on how you translate 돌려. In Japanese, its the 後ろ回し蹴り (ushiro mawashi geri) and has the same meaning as the Korean.

    What many call "spinning back kick" is simply called 뒤차기 (dwi ch'agi), which translates simply as "back kick." Same story in Japanese with 後ろ蹴り (ushiro geri).

    So, in Korean and Japanese, the same word is used for both spin and round kicks based on the circular nature of the kicks. So, yes, I suppose the Thai round kick is a "spinning" kick if we were to use the Korean or Japanese words for those kicks. Since my striking background is mostly in TKD with a bit of Karate and Shorinji Kempo, I tend to think of these things in terms of their Korean and Japanese names as well as from a functional/descriptive stand point. Because one of the hardest things to teach beginners with regards to the back kick is to thrust straigth back and to not spin, I find using the term "spinning back kick" causes confusion.
    Last edited by TEA; 3/06/2009 1:04pm at .
    Mushi mo atsui hodo
    Mushiatsui

    Originally Posted by chuey
    ...Well **** if that isn't the most anti-Mr. Miyagi **** I have heard in ages.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, but
    Three rights make a left.
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 3:00pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    I think most tend to think of the 'Te Tud' (Thai roundhouse) as a non-spinning technique, I think most would regard the full kick-miss-followthrough-bring-knee-across-body routing as being a 'spinning' technique.

    bring on the jokes about gym 'spinning' classes..
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 3:30pm

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I think most tend to think of the 'Te Tud' (Thai roundhouse) as a non-spinning technique, I think most would regard the full kick-miss-followthrough-bring-knee-across-body routing as being a 'spinning' technique.

    bring on the jokes about gym 'spinning' classes..
    I don't speak Thai, so I don't know if they have the same overlap in meaning that exists in Japanese and Korean between "turn" and "spin." However, my main point was that the round kick (Thai or KMA/JMA) and the spin kick are both circular techniques, which are reflected in the Korean and Japanese terms for both kicks, whereas as the back kick is a linear technique and the term "back" refers to the direction that it comes from (i.e. from your backside rather that from the front or side), which is also reflected in the Korean and Japanese terms. In other words, in at least the Korean and Japanese methodology for naming kicks, kicks are assumed to be linear unless otherwise specified (e.g. round/spin kicks) and the primary descriptor for the kick refers to the direction off of the body from which the kick is thrown (i.e. front, side, back).

    Edited to add:

    Sorry if this thread has degenerated into a somewhat nerdy structural v.s. postmodern debate on terminology. The original intent of the thread was to illustrate that the jump back kick, which many knee jerk anti-TMAers label as a gimicky technique with no practical application, can indeed be put to use in a "real" fight, as illustrated in the video in the first post.
    Last edited by TEA; 3/06/2009 3:38pm at .
    Mushi mo atsui hodo
    Mushiatsui

    Originally Posted by chuey
    ...Well **** if that isn't the most anti-Mr. Miyagi **** I have heard in ages.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, but
    Three rights make a left.
  10. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 4:27pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    I think the spinning sidekick has been accepted as a legit MMA technique since around 2000. Saku nailing Brazilians with it and all.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
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