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  1. #1
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    Do you know of Bagua links to Naihanchi, incidentally?
    Curse you! You bastids made me learn something today.

    Knowing almost nothing about Okinawan MA, I had never heard of Naihanchi. After reading that it's (maybe, according to some scholars) an ICMA flow drill related to xingyi and bagua, I looked at various interpretations on YouTube, including several bunkai videos. There's a load of terrible, terrible application suggestions out there. I mean, like, eye-bleeding bad.

    There were two that were better than the others. This video contains a bunch of good applications done in what I consider to be a questionable manner and shows that same throw in several footsweep variations:

    YouTube - Karate - Naihanchi Kata Bunkai
    (starting at 0:42)

    And this one, by a karateka who crosstrains with Chan Pan-Ling's son, that looks more Chinese:

    YouTube - Naifunchin tuide lockflow

    ... the first move is, in fact, Parting the Wild Horse's Mane. Is this what you were talking about, Auslander?
    Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  2. #2
    DerAuslander's Avatar
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    Yup, that's what I was talking about Jack.

    I don't know of any direct Bagua or Xingyi links to Naihanchi. However, the technique I had been taught for the opening set was "Parting the Horse's Mane". I'll have to grab some of my old materials & see what I can fit together.

    Needless to say Jack, I know what we can play with next time I visit.

  3. #3
    1point2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher
    Curse you! You bastids made me learn something today.

    Knowing almost nothing about Okinawan MA, I had never heard of Naihanchi. After reading that it's (maybe, according to some scholars) an ICMA flow drill related to xingyi and bagua, I looked at various interpretations on YouTube, including several bunkai videos. There's a load of terrible, terrible application suggestions out there. I mean, like, eye-bleeding bad.

    There were two that were better than the others. This video contains a bunch of good applications done in what I consider to be a questionable manner and shows that same throw in several footsweep variations:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-pkxqTu6Jw
    (starting at 0:42)

    And this one, by a karateka who crosstrains with Chan Pan-Ling's son, that looks more Chinese:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBF3GF9taPY

    ... the first move is, in fact, Parting the Wild Horse's Mane. Is this what you were talking about, Auslander?
    The applications I learned are similar to the first, but not identical. Same flavor but different techniques. We do many of the techniques of the second vid, but we don't do lockflows.

    The bagua connection my teacher sees strong is the pigeon-toed stance (which Motobu hated). Only some of the Okinawans did it, and my teacher notes that if you're sloppy, stepping sideways in the naihanchi stance repeatedly in the same direction causes you to walk the circle a la bagua. And if those aren't xingyi-style kicks, my name is Mickey Mouse.

  4. #4
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    The applications I learned are similar to the first, but not identical. Same flavor but different techniques. We do many of the techniques of the second vid, but we don't do lockflows.

    The bagua connection my teacher sees strong is the pigeon-toed stance (which Motobu hated). Only some of the Okinawans did it, and my teacher notes that if you're sloppy, stepping sideways in the naihanchi stance repeatedly in the same direction causes you to walk the circle a la bagua. And if those aren't xingyi-style kicks, my name is Mickey Mouse.
    Hey mickey.

  5. #5
    1point2's Avatar
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    I'm so fine I blow your mind?

  6. #6
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    The bagua connection my teacher sees strong is the pigeon-toed stance
    Bagua is not particularly pigeon-toed. None of the systems from that broader family use that kind of stance, which is more of a Hakka Kuen thing.

    Here's an example of some of the straight-line bagua methods that resemble what I see in that kata:

    YouTube - LuoDeXiu Subtle Skill 1

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    And if those aren't xingyi-style kicks, my name is Mickey Mouse.
    I'm not sure I understand this, unless what you're saying is that it's like xingyi in that it isn't mainly about kicking? Here's some good xingyi:

    YouTube - Xing Yi Quan ( Hsing-I, 河北形意拳 ) 5 Elements and Linking form

    I've seen a couple of Okinawan stylists go for this kind of body movement, is that what you're getting at?
    Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  7. #7
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    ^^^1point2 this is why you are being called Mickey.

    Quit posting that video. I'm only allowed to post that video.

  8. #8
    1point2's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to say that bagua uses the high, pigeon-toed stance--I'm saying that Bagua circle-walking has a possible relationship to the steps in the pigeon-toed Okinawan version. The kata is linear side-to-side, but when stepping in the pigeon-toed stance sideways, repeatedly in the same direction, one naturally steps forward and walks in a circle. Is that a misguided observation?

    As for the kicks, I'm only dimly aware of XIngyi methods, but from what I think I know, one is something like this:

    YouTube - Low front thrust kick ''斧刃脚''
    or
    http://dojorat.blogspot.com/2009/01/...k-hsing-i.html

    I learned that kick (sole of foot or heel chopping forward & downward onto shin or knee) as an application of Naihanchi's sweeps and sideways steps. It appeared that the first vid you posted of the Naihanchi bunkai had a few of them too. Am I mistaken in calling these xingyi-like? Are they more broadly internal CMA, or just popular in CMA generally?

  9. #9
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    I learned that kick (sole of foot or heel chopping forward & downward onto shin or knee) as an application of Naihanchi's sweeps and sideways steps. It appeared that the first vid you posted of the Naihanchi bunkai had a few of them too. Am I mistaken in calling these xingyi-like? Are they more broadly internal CMA, or just popular in CMA generally?
    That kick is in many CMA arts. The one you are referring to made me laugh because, it is the oft repeated Knee stomp crippling kick in the dreaded _ing _un.

  10. #10
    1point2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    That kick is in many CMA arts. The one you are referring to made me laugh because, it is the oft repeated Knee stomp crippling kick in the dreaded _ing _un.
    Yeah, I guess I've seen that too. I stand corrected.

    Motion to move these Naihanchi posts to a separate thread re: "CMA/OMA overlap in Naihanchi kata"?

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