Messerfetchen

**Eudemic** · Posted On: 2/12/2009 11:31pm

Would anyone around here be able to direct me to some grosse messer materials, preferably in english?

I'm currently in possession of a translation of the Codex Wallerstein, 'Medieval Combat' (a translation of Talhoffer's 1467 fechtbuch) and 'In Service of the Duke' (effectively the same plays with the messer as Talhoffer's book, so meh.) and am quite facinated by what little I've seen, but would like more.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 2/13/2009 1:13am

It sounds like you already have most of the traditional written sources.

I've seen some good reviews for this instructional DVD:

YouTube - Agilitas.tv Ausschnitte aus der DVD Langes Messer Teil 1

I don't know if it's available in English (some of the Agilitas instructionals are, some aren't), but the German language version is at http://www.historische-kampfkunst.de/

**odysseus_dallas** · Posted On: 2/13/2009 6:51am

Originally Posted by Eudemic

Would anyone around here be able to direct me to some grosse messer materials, preferably in english?

I'm currently in possession of a translation of the Codex Wallerstein, 'Medieval Combat' (a translation of Talhoffer's 1467 fechtbuch) and 'In Service of the Duke' (effectively the same plays with the messer as Talhoffer's book, so meh.) and am quite facinated by what little I've seen, but would like more.

Tough luck there, messer's not that popular unfortunately.

Here's something I found on youtube from MEdieval Martial Arts Guild (IIRC):

YouTube - Messer Techniques from Talhoffer

It's got the talhoffer plates you have, along with interpretation. Looks quite nice, might come in handy.

**Eudemic** · Posted On: 2/13/2009 5:11pm

Originally Posted by DdlR

It sounds like you already have most of the traditional written sources.

I've seen some good reviews for this instructional DVD:

*snip*

I don't know if it's available in English (some of the Agilitas instructionals are, some aren't), but the German language version is at http://www.historische-kampfkunst.de/

Looks like they have something I could use. Hopefully they'll include the source materials as well, I'm a little leary of buying interperetations without references.

Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas

Tough luck there, messer's not that popular unfortunately.

Here's something I found on youtube from MEdieval Martial Arts Guild (IIRC):

*snip*

It's got the talhoffer plates you have, along with interpretation. Looks quite nice, might come in handy.

I've seen a bunch of MEMAG's youtube videos, and can't think of any I didn't like. Needs moar messer, though! =P

**odysseus_dallas** · Posted On: 2/13/2009 5:51pm

Originally Posted by Eudemic

I've seen a bunch of MEMAG's youtube videos, and can't think of any I didn't like. Needs moar messer, though! =P

Filthy peasants and their messers... :P

**SBG-ape** · Posted On: 2/13/2009 9:19pm

I've always had reservations about MEMAG. They seem to spend a lot of their time trying to match their bodies to the form of the historical images for demonstrations & compliant drills. Their sparring on the other hand looks...rough. I'm not a great swordsman myself, but then again, I'm not posting instructional videos on the internet or calling myself an "instructor". From the training videos they've posted, it looks like MEMAG does a lot of compliant drills & demonstrations without aliveness & they spar.

Having said that, they do clearly illustrate many techniques with, usually, a tolerably accurate interpretation. So, there are worse sources out there.

**Eudemic** · Posted On: 2/14/2009 11:25am

As long as the demonstrations and instructional pieces match what is to be found in the fechtbuch then I'm fine with it. Their videos of free-play/sparring aren't too useful to me at my level, unfortunately (due largely to not being able to spar myself.)

**odysseus_dallas** · Posted On: 2/14/2009 12:04pm

Originally Posted by Eudemic

As long as the demonstrations and instructional pieces match what is to be found in the fechtbuch then I'm fine with it. Their videos of free-play/sparring aren't too useful to me at my level, unfortunately (due largely to not being able to spar myself.)

How long have you been training?

Sparring, if you ask me, should be at the latest 6-9 months after you begin training.

**Eudemic** · Posted On: 2/14/2009 12:20pm

Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas

How long have you been training?

Sparring, if you ask me, should be at the latest 6-9 months after you begin training.

My training and I suffer from not having a dedicated partner or group to work with.

**SBG-ape** · Posted On: 2/14/2009 9:38pm

Originally Posted by Eudemic

As long as the demonstrations and instructional pieces match what is to be found in the fechtbuch then I'm fine with it.

The problem with that is that the fightbooks were written in a time before people were entirely clear on things like drawing with perspective. The artistic conventions of the Medieval period have to be understood & to an extent compensated for.

If someone only experiences compliant exercises (where almost anything will work & you're governed more by aesthetic & philosophical concerns then practical biomechanics) & the chaos of free sparring (where the nuances are often missed), without the middle stage of live (resistant) drilling, then deeper understanding of the material & the mechanical principles that guide it is often missed; in which case it's hard to know when to interpret the art literally & when to interpret it liberally.