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  1. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 9:10am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Captain Alfred Hutton's system was perfectly well adapted to his weapon (the 19th century military sabre, in this case).

    The modern HEMA objection was to the assumption that classical fencing techniques (such as default edge-parrying) translated directly to earlier styles, i.e. the great "flat vs. edge" debate of the late 1990s, which was in fact an almost complete waste of time and a classic case of two "camps" talking past each other via the Internet.
    Can you start a thread on that? By the time i joined ARMA, it was pretty much taught from the beginning that you parry with flat whenever possible, and that's the case in pekiti as well.
  2. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 11:47am


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    Can you start a thread on that? By the time i joined ARMA, it was pretty much taught from the beginning that you parry with flat whenever possible, and that's the case in pekiti as well.
    I do believe he has already stated he's not interested in ever discussing that. Again. :p

    Jokes aside, practically nobody's eager to start that huge debate again. It's kinda like creationism vs evolution, except in a more focused scale.
  3. Callum Forbes is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 3:54pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kukjae Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I did fencing (sabre and foil) early on in my "martial arts" career and got reasonably good at it. However I never really understood the "right of way" rule and when I first started Hapkido I got munted over really badly in sparring because of the fencing linear mindset. Took a long time to sort out my footwork. I now do Hapkido and WMA (1.33 and Fiore) and based on that I would say that modern sports fencing has no translation to reality.
  4. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 6:57pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post
    I do believe he has already stated he's not interested in ever discussing that. Again. :p

    Jokes aside, practically nobody's eager to start that huge debate again. It's kinda like creationism vs evolution, except in a more focused scale.
    Is there anywhere such debates might be compiled that I could look them over? I literally just have a hard time thinking of what the counter-arguements for parrying with the edge might be.
  5. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2009 7:36pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    Is there anywhere such debates might be compiled that I could look them over? I literally just have a hard time thinking of what the counter-arguements for parrying with the edge might be.
    The only one I can think of at the moment is that the edge can offer a stronger block, which is true per se... but why block in the first place?
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 2:16am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    Is there anywhere such debates might be compiled that I could look them over? I literally just have a hard time thinking of what the counter-arguements for parrying with the edge might be.
    The argument I'm familiar with is that parrying with he edge aligns your skeleton with the blade better and puts your weapon on the inside position of your opponents for a quick counter to the arm or head. Hard blocks with the flat can also bend your weapon. With a saber, the first third iss the strongest part to block with, and coincidentally that's often the unsharpened part. The "parries" I'm talking about, BTW, are the high and low inward and outward blocks, not circular parries.
    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post
    The only one I can think of at the moment is that the edge can offer a stronger block, which is true per se... but why block in the first place?
    Because it's faster to move your arm 12 inches than moving your entire body out of reach, and sometimes you have to make use of that.
  7. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 2:20am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In regards to the original question, does anyone make use of any unusual fencing attacks in weapon sparring? When sparring with knives I've countered a high thrust with an inquartata to the chest, and I've used the passata soto to cut the leg while avoiding a high attack.
  8. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2009 5:45am


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    The argument I'm familiar with is that parrying with he edge aligns your skeleton with the blade better and puts your weapon on the inside position of your opponents for a quick counter to the arm or head.
    Not true. Parrying with the flat more than likely ends with your blade perfectly aligned for a quick cut or even thrust (tip upwards) or for a powerful cut (tip downwards).

    Hard blocks with the flat can also bend your weapon.
    Steel that can flex for almost 90 degrees and return true is hardly troubled by "bending".

    With a saber, the first third iss the strongest part to block with, and coincidentally that's often the unsharpened part. The "parries" I'm talking about, BTW, are the high and low inward and outward blocks, not circular parries.
    The same happens with pretty much every weapon- you parry with the strong, which is usually unsharpened because A)It doesn't need to be sharpened, you never cut with it, and B)because especially with straight swords, half-swording is much easier if grasping an UNsharpened blade.


    Because it's faster to move your arm 12 inches than moving your entire body out of reach, and sometimes you have to make use of that.
    And it takes less than a split second to turn your wrist so that you parry with the flat instead of the edge- not to mention that in most cases you don't even have to do that (like in the basic position where you hold the hilt waist-high and the sword pointed towards your opponent neck. Now in longsword that's the Posta Breve or middle pflug, but it's the most common way to hold a sword regardless of type).
  9. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 12:34am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very good points. I really don't have experience parrying with the flat of the blade.
  10. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2009 7:18am


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    Very good points. I really don't have experience parrying with the flat of the blade.
    In FMA you train just with sticks or do you practice swords as well?
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