Pancration in Victorian England

[265lbsfist]

Fighting has always been a past-time of us humans so Victorian Englishmen's interest in reviving Pankration with their fascination for the Classics and with bareknuckle boxing complete with throws and CACC around is hardly a stretch of the imagination.

Nice Egyptian pics BTW.

[bludhall]

ok let me shed a little light on this issue for you guys

Firstly here is my website http://historical-pankration.com
It is the most complete list of Ancient Heavy Athletics sources on the Web.

MMA gloves were invented by the ancient Greeks and there are examples of them in sources.

Yes Kostas is the ARMA member in Greece working on a Pankratiomn interpretation, he is in my humble opinion the foremost authoirty on the subject. His book is excellent, if you find it short on sources you must be blind. i know Kosta myself as i was also an ARMA member for manyh years andi work on my own interpretation ( i have a few articles on my theories)

very ferw people are working on a historically accurate interpretation of Pankration out there, mostly thye just throw boxing and wrestling together and call it that. or they use MMA. All that ios fine byt historical arts were different, more brutal and without all the rules and safety equipment, and most importantly deeply connected to the pammachon or battlefield arts.

Oh Hi Stew :)

Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
http://www.freifechter.com

[Stew]

Hey Mike, you're just the person I've been meaning to ask about this, but I've been slacking posting on any forum lately. My pesky job keeps getting in the way. Glad you chose to chime in.

[rydam]

ok let me shed a little light on this issue for you guys

Firstly here is my website http://historical-pankration.com
It is the most complete list of Ancient Heavy Athletics sources on the Web.

MMA gloves were invented by the ancient Greeks and there are examples of them in sources.

Yes Kostas is the ARMA member in Greece working on a Pankratiomn interpretation, he is in my humble opinion the foremost authoirty on the subject. His book is excellent, if you find it short on sources you must be blind. i know Kosta myself as i was also an ARMA member for manyh years andi work on my own interpretation ( i have a few articles on my theories)

very ferw people are working on a historically accurate interpretation of Pankration out there, mostly thye just throw boxing and wrestling together and call it that. or they use MMA. All that ios fine byt historical arts were different, more brutal and without all the rules and safety equipment, and most importantly deeply connected to the pammachon or battlefield arts.

Oh Hi Stew :)

Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
http://www.freifechter.com

Just out of interest, what physical evidence (i.e written source evidence not etymological) has Kostas come across that proves the existence of Pammachon before Pankration? The only evidence I found in his book was the etymology of the word pammachon, which only gets mentioned once in greek and roman sources by Dio Chrysostom (a late Roman source) when he refers to a Theban type of pankration.

Kostas is doing a brilliant job with his physical interpretation of pankration, however I'd just like to see the actual written evidence he is basing this on.

[bludhall]

well i cant remember exactly what he uses as his sources but i know i have seen the mention of the origins of Pankration and the heavy athletics in several sources. Its was a natural extention of the battlefield arts. In one of my articles i talk about the reasonings for the high cocked back hand so evident in pankration. one of the reasons i think is that it mimics the same athletics attributes in hoplite spear work and dagger play.

We know pammachon existed , its referenced in several sources not by name but as the unarmed art of the hoplite, which was necessarily much more brutal and battlefield ready than the later more sport oriented heavy athletics.

i think another telling sign of the the connection between battlefield art and sport is the choice of deities who graced the heavy athletics training facilities. Ares, hermes and herakles, theseus and athena.

i haven't seen anything put forth by anyone to say that battlefield arts did not influence and seed the later heavy athletics. i

[rydam]

well i cant remember exactly what he uses as his sources but i know i have seen the mention of the origins of Pankration and the heavy athletics in several sources. Its was a natural extention of the battlefield arts. In one of my articles i talk about the reasonings for the high cocked back hand so evident in pankration. one of the reasons i think is that it mimics the same athletics attributes in hoplite spear work and dagger play.

We know pammachon existed , its referenced in several sources not by name but as the unarmed art of the hoplite, which was necessarily much more brutal and battlefield ready than the later more sport oriented heavy athletics.

i think another telling sign of the the connection between battlefield art and sport is the choice of deities who graced the heavy athletics training facilities. Ares, hermes and herakles, theseus and athena.

i haven't seen anything put forth by anyone to say that battlefield arts did not influence and seed the later heavy athletics. i

But Greek hoplites (aside from Sparta in the 6th century) only became professional in the 4th century B.C , and the shift from battlefield fighting into heavy athletics would have had to happen before the insitutionalisation of the Games in early 8th century.

The 8th century leaves little written sources or iconographic evidence (unless stated by an later ancient historians) to suggest any kind of existence of pammachon ( i.e Tyrtaios, Homer etc). I do agree that pankration was the fighting style best suited for hoplites, however I just cant see the existence of a developed battlefield version in the early 8th century or even later.

Can you give me direct references to the sources you are using? Im just intrigued as I haven't come across them yet.

Thanks

[bludhall]

certainly
I'll have to dig up the rest but hewre is my literary sources

http://historical-pankration.com/arc...archiveid=1015

Kostas also has a few pictures of battlefield action using what looks like pankration.


i don't think we disagree here, i am merely stating that its connected, i don't think there was a styler per say or a codified martial art. All cultures wrestle and its usually the first step of the battlefield arts.

I'll get back with some more when i look them up.

[rydam]

certainly
I'll have to dig up the rest but hewre is my literary sources

http://historical-pankration.com/arc...archiveid=1015

Kostas also has a few pictures of battlefield action using what looks like pankration.


i don't think we disagree here, i am merely stating that its connected, i don't think there was a styler per say or a codified martial art. All cultures wrestle and its usually the first step of the battlefield arts.

I'll get back with some more when i look them up.

Oh yes its definatley connected. Thank you for providing the material, philostratos is a very interesting source but very late. I am doing my thesis on the Greek military application and training in Greek martial arts.

Some interesting sources I have come across, giving insight to battlefield fighting in ancient Greece, are:

Strabo (citing a Euboean historian Archemachus whos work has not survived):
"Archemachus the Euboean says that the Curetes settled at Chalcis, but since they were continually at war for the Lelantine Plain and the enemy would catch them by the front hair and drag them down, he says, they let their hair grow long behind but cut short the part in front, and because of this they were called "Curetes," from the cut of their hair"

Strabo 10.3.6, obtained from Perseus:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ut=&loc=10.3.1

This is very interesting because a later source, Polyaenus, states that thesus started doing this before war to prevent the hair from being seized and the abantes (euboea) started copying him. (Polyaenus, 1.4, no online translation available, but see 1793 translation by R.Shepherd)

This is also mentioned by Plutarch in 'Theseus'

The Abantes first used it, not in imitation
of the Arabians, as some imagine, nor of the Mysians, but because
they were a warlike people, and used to close fighting, and above
all other nations accustomed to engage hand to hand; as Archilochus
testifies in these verses:-
"Slings shall not whirl, nor many arrows fly,
When on the plain the battle joins; but swords,
Man against man, the deadly conflict try
As is the practice of Euboea's lords
Skilled with the spear.-"
Therefore that they might not give their enemies a hold by their hair,
they cut it in this manner. They write also that this was the reason
why Alexander gave command to his captains that all the beards of
the Macedonians should be shaved, as being the readiest hold for an
enemy.
The Abantes first used it, not in imitation
of the Arabians, as some imagine, nor of the Mysians, but because
they were a warlike people, and used to close fighting, and above
all other nations accustomed to engage hand to hand; as Archilochus
testifies in these verses:-
"Slings shall not whirl, nor many arrows fly,
When on the plain the battle joins; but swords,
Man against man, the deadly conflict try
As is the practice of Euboea's lords
Skilled with the spear.-"
Therefore that they might not give their enemies a hold by their hair,
they cut it in this manner. They write also that this was the reason
why Alexander gave command to his captains that all the beards of
the Macedonians should be shaved, as being the readiest hold for an
enemy.

obtained from:

http://www.greektexts.com/library/Pl...s/eng/932.html

This is proof that wrestling would have originated out of neccesity (to break grips and to stay standing, very obvious i know but im trying to convince scholars). my work at the moment is focusing on proving arguments such as these to academics who want the literal proof, if you want to see more of my source work , please dont hesitate to ask.

Thanks.

[bludhall]

great thanks for the sources, i am goingto add them into my archive personally, please feel free to add any others you find to my sources project.
you can reach me directly at bludhall at hotmail.com or at my website Historical Pankration Project