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  1. Stew is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2009 3:35pm


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    Pancration in Victorian England

    While checking out the WMA links posted on the links thread I found this article on the Historical Pankration site. http://www.historical-pankration.com/article-1.html. Its an article discussing an attempted revival of pankration in Victorian England by combining Catch and Boxing. I found it interesting and thought I'd share.
  2. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2009 3:45pm

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    "The solution has been to devise a novel form of glove, rather more open in the palm and with room for the fingers to grip securely, yet well-padded across the knuckles."

    Interesting...
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  3. Stew is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2009 4:30pm


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    I thought that was interesting too. I need to do a little googling and see if I can find out more about this. Obviously it didn't catch on, but can you imagine how different things would be today if it had?
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2009 4:43pm

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    I read that article years ago and have tried to research/substantiate it, but came up completely empty. I can only assume that "Neo-Pancratium" never really got beyond the experimental stage.
  5. Stew is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2009 4:48pm


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    I think at least one of the guys involved in the historical pankration group is an ARMA member. I'll inquire over there if anybody has more info or access to the original article. I'd kinda like to see a scan of the original if possible.
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2009 5:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stew
    I think at least one of the guys involved in the historical pankration group is an ARMA member. I'll inquire over there if anybody has more info or access to the original article. I'd kinda like to see a scan of the original if possible.
    Good luck, but I've seen the original article - unfortunately, it doesn't offer any more than what you see in this link.
  7. templar9 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2009 11:19am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stew View Post
    I think at least one of the guys involved in the historical pankration group is an ARMA member. I'll inquire over there if anybody has more info or access to the original article. I'd kinda like to see a scan of the original if possible.
    I do not think that there is an ARMA member involved-since I am an ARMA member myself-in that..
    I come from Greece and so does Pancration!
    the whole thing with Pancration is very hazy here in Greece....I have visited some schools and what I saw was a mix of Karate and wrestling ...not what I was expecting to see...anyway...there is a very good book if you wanna read "Martial Arts of Ancient Greece" by Kostas Dervenis (check at Amazon).
  8. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2009 12:51pm

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    Yep, much as I've ever discerned, any deeper information about it was lost in the Babbage machine it was stored in.

    I do love the idea of it and it seems entirely plausible but there isn't anything to substiantiate beyond the link. At least until that punch card is found...
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  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2009 3:26pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by templar9 View Post
    I do not think that there is an ARMA member involved-since I am an ARMA member myself-in that..
    I come from Greece and so does Pancration!
    the whole thing with Pancration is very hazy here in Greece....I have visited some schools and what I saw was a mix of Karate and wrestling ...not what I was expecting to see...anyway...there is a very good book if you wanna read "Martial Arts of Ancient Greece" by Kostas Dervenis (check at Amazon).
    I think Stew was right - one of the guys in the US doing pancration research is in ARMA (but obviously, the pancration research is his own project, not officially part of the ARMA curriculum).
  10. rydam is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2009 10:49pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by templar9 View Post
    I do not think that there is an ARMA member involved-since I am an ARMA member myself-in that..
    I come from Greece and so does Pancration!
    the whole thing with Pancration is very hazy here in Greece....I have visited some schools and what I saw was a mix of Karate and wrestling ...not what I was expecting to see...anyway...there is a very good book if you wanna read "Martial Arts of Ancient Greece" by Kostas Dervenis (check at Amazon).

    I found the scholastic value of Kostas' book 'Martial Arts of Ancient Greece' to be a complete minimum, as he hardly references anything he states with regard to ancient literary sources. He is a Trad JJ BB and also does tai chi who has interpreted Pankration as if it were an eastern martial art. My lecturer (who is Greek too) read the bit in his book about how pankration was once called Pammachon because this was the name of the 'martial art version of pankration not the combat sport version' and laughed due to him making the assumption that a Theban version of Pankration in the 4th Century B.C mentioned in Dio Chrysostom 'Pammachon' could somehow become this mythical martial art before the existence of pankration.

    Western MA's such as boxing, wrestling, pankration, are all highly practical MAs and are the result of a proccess of trial and error in fighting and sparring, what works is included, and what doesnt is omitted. Therefore any civilisation who has gone through the same proccess of trial and error with fighting and sparring to see what works will come up with the same (if not similar) conclusions. There are only so many ways the body moves and these were found out by many ancient warlike civilisations.

    For example, the tombs of Beni Hasan in Egypt, dating to 2000 B.C shows people fighting from guard, half guard, doing kneebars, rear naked chokes, tomo nages, hip throws, single and double legs, triangle like strangulations, knee on belly etc.

    http://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de...history/01.gif

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3173/...cc841498f0.jpg

    Ill post again giving links when my postgrad study is done so everyone can have a read, but the victorian revival of pankration is interesting, it shows that the interest in NHB fighting has been an interest mankind has had for as long as fighting arts have been around.
    Last edited by rydam; 3/01/2009 10:51pm at .
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