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  1. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 5:33pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Larson
    What classifies the western approach?
    For me the western approach is one of pragmatism with a greater emphasis on sport and competition.

    If you read the things people like Farmer Burns and Jack Dempsey have written you'll find discussions of fighting in terms of their benefits to your health, strength, and success in competition. You don't see as much of the discussion of spiritual growth and self-actualization that you read in many Eastern texts such as the writings of Kano or Ueshiba.

    That's my interpretation, anyway. I'll leave final say to the mods.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 5:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Larson
    What classifies the western approach?
    That should probably be its own thread. Specific to JKD, I was thinking in terms of Bruce Lee's focus on pragmatism over lineage, use of (then) cutting-edge training methods and equipment, openness towards combining Asian and European MAs (and, significantly, combat sports as well), attempt to create a scientific basis for training, etc. I realize that many of these attributes can also be ascribed to traditional Asian styles within their own cultural contexts.
    Last edited by DdlR; 2/11/2009 5:40pm at .
  3. Snake Plissken is offline
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    When I Get Back

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 5:42pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist
    For me the western approach is one of pragmatism with a greater emphasis on sport and competition.

    If you read the things people like Farmer Burns and Jack Dempsey have written you'll find discussions of fighting in terms of their benefits to your health, strength, and success in competition. You don't see as much of the discussion of spiritual growth and self-actualization that you read in many Eastern texts such as the writings of Kano or Ueshiba.

    That's my interpretation, anyway. I'll leave final say to the mods.
    ^^^
    This as Jack Dempsey fought so he could eat not achieve oneness with the world.
  4. JKDChick is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 5:45pm

    staff
     Style: JKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All the "western" arts come from east of me, I'm confused.
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
  5. Scott Larson is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 5:51pm


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm looking forward to much learning in this forum.
    ________________________________________

    Authentic Kung Fu in Buffalo, NY

    http://www.buffalokungfu.com


    http://www.laoshierinmarkle.com
  6. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 5:52pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist
    For me the western approach is one of pragmatism with a greater emphasis on sport and competition. [ ... ] benefits to your health, strength, and success in competition. You don't see as much of the discussion of spiritual growth and self-actualization that you read in many Eastern texts such as the writings of Kano or Ueshiba.
    While I see what you're getting at here, I think it's more of a modern phenomenon. Quick examples: the Ancient Greeks regarded athletics (including competition) as a means of self-cultivation, while the ancestors and cousins of shuaijiao (shǒubó, sumo, bokë, &c) have been combat sports for over three thousand years.

    I think we'd be best served to delineate these things geographically and culturally. Thus a discussion of, for example, the use of fencing footwork in JDK and/or a discussion of parallels between that and the original fencing-based footwork of old boxing would fit here very well.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  7. Scott Larson is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 5:56pm


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So really the only difference is the language used?
    ________________________________________

    Authentic Kung Fu in Buffalo, NY

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  8. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 6:01pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher
    While I see what you're getting at here, I think it's more of a modern phenomenon.
    Good point. The main issue, I think, is that there really isn't a definitive answer. Like those "What is a TMA?" debates that still sprout up all the time. I'm sure a consensus can be reached.

    Or we'll split hairs forever!

    Either way I'm eager to learn more about this stuff.
  9. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 6:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We're going to find alot of grey areas in the WMAs, but we can only judge them case by case. But we shouldn't focus too much now on the grey areas, since there are alot straight forward WMA cases.

    examples:

    WMA: Savate, (English) Boxing, wrestling (Greco, free, catch), etc...

    Grey area: Bjj (YES, Bjj)

    - JMA: decendant of (Kosen) Judo
    - DHS: pure grappling style
    -WMA: Brazilian touch in the evolution from (Kosen) Judo to Bjj (trainingmethods, evolution of techniques, crosstraining Luta Livre, Western mentality, etc...)

    So in the case of Bjj (and many others including Bartitsu, JKD), it depends from the topic we're addressing, in which forum we're going to post.

    Edit: Vote DdlR for Mod WMA
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2009 6:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan
    We're going to find alot of grey areas in the WMAs, but we can only judge them case by case. But we shouldn't focus too much now on the grey areas, since there are alot straight forward WMA cases.

    examples:

    WMA: Savate, (English) Boxing, wrestling (Greco, free, catch), etc...

    Grey area: Bjj (YES, Bjj)

    - JMA: decendant of (Kosen) Judo
    - DHS: pure grappling style
    -WMA: Brazilian touch in the evolution from (Kosen) Judo to Bjj (trainingmethods, evolution of techniques, crosstraining Luta Livre, Western mentality, etc...)

    So in the case of Bjj (and many others including Bartitsu, JKD), it depends from the topic we're addressing, in which forum we're going to post.
    I think that's sensible. There are numerous styles (most RMA, BJJ, Bartitsu, JKD, etc.) that can legitimately be described as inter-cultural, either in terms of borrowing techniques, training methodologies, mindsets, etc. A thread on the impact of, say, European and American military CQB on modern Russian styles would be perfectly on-topic for this forum, likewise (potentially) a discussion of how European physical education pedagogy may have influenced Kodokan judo, etc.
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