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  1. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 12:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    ??? yes you do. That's like saying you don't need good striking in teh str33t, because it's easy to **** someone up. Smaller gloves just increase the hurt, they don't remove the need for effective striking.
    No, you obviously don't since people are getting ko'd all the time in MMA by wrestlers with a strong haymaker. You can't tell me this doesn't happen all the time because I've seen it. And no, you don't need to have awesome technique to beat someone in a street fight either. Fighters in MMA, as a general rule, just plain aren't as technical at striking as those in striking sports. Why is this so hard to accept?


    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    I disagree, unless you mean awesome strikers in that, they lost by other means, and not by strikes. mma history is littered with strikers who couldn't adapt to a more free-range form of fighting.
    ...Yes, I mean the strikers that had good striking in other sports still have good striking in MMA. Just because they get taken down and beaten on the ground doesn't take anything away from their striking ability, it just means they're lacking in the wrestling department. You don't "adapt your striking to MMA" you just learn how to grapple. Guys like Cro Cop, GSP and Anderson Silva are awesome kickboxers and their kickboxing still works in MMA. That's my point. They didn't have to relearn how to punch and kick now that takedowns and small gloves were involved.
  2. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 2:36pm

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     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    Until Fedor's techniques are used successfully by other fighters all the "Kickboxing Strikers" who say his form sucks are right.
    so you are talking about forms, not fighting. I was under the impression, that being a classy striker, means landing a high percentage, and hurting when they land, without receiving a lot of punishment in return. I didn't realize that the aesthetics of form, made up such a large part of full contact mma. It aint tai chi, you know. If you're knocked out, and he isn't, who's better at striking? The guy who looked "better" or the guy who landed, and won when he did?


    Take Fedor's iron chin and amazing accuracy out of the equation and you get a lot of sloppy technique that other people aren't making work.
    You take anybody's chin and accuracy out of the equation, and they're not going to look good. If you miss, you suck. If you can't take punches, it's hard to be in a condition to give them. It's got so little to do with how someone looks in a still shot, and so much to do with landing punches.

    This sounds to me, like saying take Michael Jordans legs and amazing accuracy away, and you'd have one sloppy basketball player.

    Take tiger woods swing, and amazing accuracy away, and he'd not be a great golfer.

    Deny George Carlin swear words, and sarcasm, and he wouldn't sound that funny.

    Take the logic out of Sherlock Holme's tales, and Dr Watson away, and you'd have a sloppy fictitious detective agency.

    Remove all the punctuation out of Charles Dickens' writing, and you'd have a load of sloppy literature.



    He is one of the best strikers in the game. Whether or not he's one of the best teachers, or instructional booklet authors would be a different question.

    'Technique' is a means to an end, effective fighting. By that standard, that guy has good striking technique, but it may be based on his idiosyncratic traits as a fighter, and not general ease of application for noobs, or unserious/unsuited mentalities and or body types.
  3. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 2:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the point is that the set of effective punching techniques is larger in MMA than in striking sports. Probably the set of effective kicking techniques is somewhat smaller too.

    The haymaker and related hook variants clearly work in MMA, and clearly don't work in boxing, etc. That doesn't make them 'bad form' anymore than the Thai roundkick may be 'bad form' when viewed from TKD.
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  4. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 3:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KidSpatula
    Fighters in MMA, as a general rule, just plain aren't as technical at striking as those in striking sports. Why is this so hard to accept?
    That's true to the degree that the needs placed upon them, divide their training time. It's not true that they aren't training as hard, or are inherently incapable of pure striking. Pure striking doesn't win many mma fights. Combining skills is more essential.

    Just because they get taken down and beaten on the ground doesn't take anything away from their striking ability.
    it does to me. Hand position, guard, footwork, spacing, timing, combos...all of these have to be adjusted, for best effect. There aren't the same assumptions in mma, in terms of opponent response, that pure striking sports allow.

    You don't "adapt your striking to MMA" you just learn how to grapple. Guys like Cro Cop, GSP and Anderson Silva are awesome kickboxers and their kickboxing still works in MMA. That's my point. They didn't have to relearn how to punch and kick now that takedowns and small gloves were involved.
    CroCop got knocked out by another striker (GG is MT and teh grapple)
    GSP was out stuck by Matt Serra, primarily a grappler.
    Anderson Silva has lost fights in the past (Pride, I don't remember how)

    Their kickboxing often works in mma, but they have lost, meaning, their techniques, for all their flash, and brilliance, had holes. Holes that led to defeat. Fedor's striking ALWAYS works for him.

    If striking technique in a fight or confrontation, leads to defeat, then it does speak to the quality of it. If someone habitually overextends their cross, like a good boxer should...they're gonna pay in kickboxing, and mma/sambo etc. A kickboxer who lands brazillian kicks all day, is just open himself up for a massive counter more often than not.
    A world champ chunner in teh triangle stance n' ****...well, you get the picture.

    Wouldn't the best test of a striker be, when he has to strike, but can't count on his opponent only striking? much less can be taken for granted, in terms of position and balance, in those instances.

    By this test, Fedor wins in the EPIC manner. Or at least places. Regardless of whether or not it can be replicated by others. He is a great striker.


    AND they do have to adjust it all. It's very common to train boxing, MT, BJJ and also mma specifically, for cage particulars, and to use them together. Grappling when punched in the face, is a lot different. Same goes for kickboxing when you can be tackled, or slammed. Or boxing with leg kicks, you need a different stance etc.
    Last edited by bobyclumsyninja; 2/10/2009 3:11pm at .
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 3:59pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boby you are forgetting the context of this discussion. It is about 2 techniques in Fedor's book. BOOKS ARE FER LEARNIN'

    If the content isn't worth learning unless you are Fedor what is the fucking point?

    No one is saying Fedor's style doesn't work FOR HIM. It obviously does. However, more traditional striking (ie Kickboxing/Boxing) has shown dramatically more success for more people. Your counter examples actually prove that. You are giving examples of strikers defeated by grapplers who learned good striking!
  6. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 4:42pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is he a great striker? Obviously.

    Will learning from his books and trying to fight using Fedor's style work for most people? Doubtful.
  7. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 4:57pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can make up for a lot of sloppy technique with sheer athleticism. Fedor is durable, strong, has excellent timing and distancing skills and is aggressive and while these traits have nothing to do with technique, they can win you a lot of fights all on their own. His striking technique also happens to be better than terrible, which is better than the majority of MMA fighters, so that combined with all the attributes mentioned above makes him a force on his feet in the world of MMA. His striking technique is still crappy enough that he doesn't really have much business selling it in a book to all the Fedor nutriders that would love to be him.

    You point about the fighters I mentioned having lost MMA fights is pretty rediculous. No matter how bad ass your technique is, you're going to get hit and in MMA getting hit by one big sloppy punch that you didn't manage to counter or avoid for whatever reason (and there are countless many) in 4oz gloves by a ~200lb athlete can easily ruin your day. You make one stupid mistake and you get kicked in the head and KO'd by someone who you should beat easily, ala Cro Cop. Guess what? Top level kickboxers lose kickboxing matches too. Does this mean there's some sort of technical failing that they haven't worked out or that they need to learn something new? No, it just means that their opponent happened to get the better of them on that particular day. If you simply judge a fighter's technical ability based on winning or losing, you've got a pretty serious misunderstanding of what fighting is all about.
  8. Domite is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 5:01pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys should take alook at his book beore you say all that, you dont need to throw hooks and roundhouses like him to use his techniques.
  9. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 5:20pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Domite
    You guys should take alook at his book beore you say all that, you dont need to throw hooks and roundhouses like him to use his techniques.
    The OP was about 2 techniques as illustrated in his book. Not his entire book and not his personal ability to win fights. Just because Fedor is awesome does not mean his technique can't be put under the same microscope we use for every ridiculous ninja master that posts their techniques.
  10. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2009 5:25pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Unfortunately yes, Fedor falls into the category of someone who is so insanely good that they can make any kind of stupid **** win. Anderson Silva belongs in this same category as well. So any literature they produce should be scrutinized carefully to determine whether mere mortals are capable of using those techniques effectively. Or AS effectively as other similar techniques.
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