It's the evolution of the sport. 15 years ago, grapplers were tearing through the competition because the submission game was misunderstood and not as widespread. After it's importance was widely realized, fighters started training submissions and grappling instruction became more widespread. When two well versed fighters compete now, their submission knowledge often "cancel out" each other (move 'a' counters move 'b' which leads to position 'c' which can transition to submission 'd' but prevented using 'e' and so on...) so they often keep it standing. I think this is becoming more apparent really recently because the fighters that started learning submissions after already starting to fight professionally are fading away and are slowly being replaced by a new fighters that started training submissions in a structured MMA environment right off the bat. You also see some strikeing purists that now know how to effectively sprawl and position to negate a lot of submission attempts as well (Chuck comes to mind). I also think that some of it does come from social pressure for fighters to keep it standing to entertain casual fans (especially in the U.S.).
It's really telling to me when you have an accomplished wrestler and a world class grappler fighting for a belt and it turns into a three round boxing match (BJ Vs. Sherk) and two BJJ black belts end up having kickboxing match (Nog Vs. Mir). Not to take anything away from those fights, I just find it interesting.
Maybe people just want to kickbox?
But moose... You get hit in the face doing that...
This brings up an interesting idea of a double standard in the fight game; the idea of becoming the people's fighter, the stand up war, warriors syndrome, mindset that leads a submission artist to stand up and bang an entire fight when he would have a much better chance taking it to the ground. You see jiu-jitsu fighters, wrestlers, and judokas making the choice to keep a fight standing fairly often these days, even if it may not be in their best interest, yet you'd be extremely hardpressed to find a muay thai fighter or a boxer who voluntarily decides to take a fight to the ground to put on an epic grappling match.
Originally Posted by 3moose1
Dude, i hate to say it, but **** the crowd, i want to win, not get my ass handed to me.
If i'm a grappler, i'm grappling. Period.
Agrizzle but hes got a point look at Jorge Gurgel
I showed my mom a Jorge Gurgel fight. I said, "Madre, who do you think is a World Champion jiu jitsu fighter?"
Yes, my mom likes MMA.
Young Moosie is wise beyond his years. If only all the Andy Wangs of the world shared this much wisdom.
Originally Posted by 3moose1
If I wanted to see kickboxing, I'd watch kickboxing. If I wanted to see wrestling I'd watch wrestling, if I wanted to see sub grappling I'd watch sub grappling. IMHO the mark of a good or great MMA fight is that it spans all ranges (stand-up, clinch & ground) with both fighters being competitive in each range.
As for the original issue of this thread: positional control to set up submissions also sets up punching people in the face. Submissions from bottom are harder when you're getting punched in the face. So guys with good a good ground game who get on top tend to use their position for ground & pound either as a finish or to create openings for submissions. Guys playing guard are hard pressed to catch submissions unless there's a sizable skill difference between them & their opponent.
Submissions from guard remain profoundly badass...I rewatch the Dustin Hazelett fight from UFC 91 about every other week, it just makes me smile.
Last edited by SBG-ape; 2/03/2009 12:40am at .
in the beginning submissions were something new
now the fighters all know what it is, train in it, and know how to avoid most takedowns.
Many submissions are like certain spinning kicks. You can get a guy with it who has no clue what is coming. But if he knows a bit and trained for it, then it is back the good old basics.
So the basic subs (RNC, armbar,...) will always work. The fancy stuff is good for the dojo but not when they are actually beating the snot out of you.
And stand up is finally getting to a scary level with guys like Machida and Cung Le:laughing6
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