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  1. Asriel is offline
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    I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 3:29pm

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     Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Strength vs Endurance

    Ok, I've recently been tweaking my diet and have almost got back down to my original waist size and lost 12kilos. I'm feeling better and a lot more agile on the mat.

    I've also been doing some basic 5x5 Strength training on non-Jits days but I've recently been in the middle of a 'Strength vs Endurance Training' argument.

    More specifically, I felt in the middle of a tug o' war with the advocates of both sides trying to drag me onto their side.

    The reason i'm posting is that I would like to hear people's opinions on what they feel is more important for BJJ and why. Err.... That is, if you don't mind.
    " The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus

    " I shocked him with my skills on the ice becuase Wing Chun is great for hockey fighting." - 'Sifu' Milt Wallace

    "Besides, as you might already know (from Virus, for example) - there's only 1 wing chun and it sucks big time" - Tonuzaba

    "Even when I'm promising mayhem and butt-chicanery, I'm generally posting with a smile on my face." - Sochin101

    "That said, if he blocked my hip on a drop nage, I would extend my leg into a drop tai Otoshi and slam him so hard his parents would die." - MTripp

  2. superman36369 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 3:34pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ and Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think both are equally important , if you must pick one I would go with endurance just because if you gas strength is pointless. However you can train for both.
  3. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 4:04pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is my take on things. It is an opinion, so don't get wrapped around the axel here.

    Strength is a great quality that is needed in grappling. Yes, propaganda dictates that superior technique defeats superior strength, but superior strength and technique defeats superior technique, and superior strength and inferior technique can also beat superior technique if you have enough strength to compensate for the lack of technique. Strength is absolutely needed in all forms of combat, and especially so in grappling when you will absolutely be resisting force against force at one point in a match (this is not present as often in striking).

    Endurance is also vital, as being gassed will result in an inability to recruit strength and will leave you more open to someone else's superior strength and technique. Both aspects are necessary for a well rounded athlete.

    However, the question one must ask is "how do I acquire these attributes?"

    To me, I feel that endurance is best gained in a SPORT SPECIFIC manner. Ie: if you want to have better endurance for grappling, grapple more to build up your grappling endurance. Anyone who has ever participated in any sort of athletic training can vouch for the fact that "sport cardio" rarely has any sort of carryover to other sports. Hell, you see this even in simply different combat sports. A great boxer that can do rounds of bagwork can find themselves puking and gasping within 1 round of grappling on their first day of training. Are we saying that the boxer has "bad cardio"? Obviously not, it is simply the case that the cardio he has developed is for a specific activity, and it does not carry over well.

    We as athletes have been told for some reason that you can just have "cardio", and that you can develop "your cardio" by "doing cardio", and one of the greatest offenders of this is running. Any coach will tell you that if you want to get better at your sport, you gotta run to "build up your cardio". Why? Running in and of itself IS a sport, and taking a look at my analogy once again, you see that we have an athlete (grappler) trying to play another sport (running) to get better at his own sport (grappling). Now this grappler goes running every day and can now run a 4:30 mile, is thinking of doing a marathon sometime, and is the envy of all of his friends in high school that did track. Yet he gets on the mat, and is still gassing. What happened? He developed the wrong skillset necessary for his desired goal, and now just has "cardio" that's geared towards running, not grappling.

    Part of this is because gassing out is not simply a product of your lungs, but your muscles and economy of motion as well. If you took a look at the lungs of a champion boxer and a distance runner, they'd both appear very healthy to you, and your brain would tell you that both of these guys are going to have great cardio, yet we already explored the problem here. The reason why these men are great at their sports and falter at others is because the boxer has developed the endurance in the muscles necessary to go round after round, and his TECHNIQUE is such that he has little no to wasted energy in his movements, meaning he can throw more jabs without getting exhausted than a newer boxer.

    So the question arises, how do I train in such a way that I not only devleop a good cario base but as well develop the muscles necessary for my task AND the skills needed to improve the efficiency of my movements? The answer I feel is more time spent training the skills desired. To get more endurance at grappling, grapple more. To be a better runner, run more. You would not tell a runner to grapple to get better at running, so I see no reason to do the same to a grappler. Once you ascend to the level of advanced athlete, you may find that the law of diminishing returns plays a factor, and that you fair better with cross training than with skill training, but you can cross that bridge when necessary.


    So now I hear the question "Well if one is to develop endurance through skillset training, would not strength be brought about in the same way?" Though theoritically sound, the practice finds complication here. The problem with strength development is the absolute necessicity of increasing resistance on a gradual basis. In theory, one could in fact accomplish this by grappling progressively heavyier opponents in 1-5lb increaes that are of the absolute same skill level previously, so that one develops a linear progression in strength. Simply reading that sentence of course shows you the absurdity of the suggestion, and leaves FAR too many variables to chance. Furthermore, due to the dynamic nature of grappling, the risk of injury is FAR increased when grappling heavier opponents in the quest to gain strength, and any time spent being injured is time not spent training.

    For this, I advocate heavy, limited and abbreviated weight training consisting of compound movements that hit the entire body for the grappling trainee. Time and recovery are crucial, and as such there would be limited to no isolation work, and time spent in the gym should cap out at 45-60 minutes. You'd ideally do some sort of lowerbody work (a squat or deadlift variation), some manner of upper body pushing and some manner of upper body pulling. You'd be in a low rep range (3-5 or so) and attempting to increase your CNS's efficiency. Yes, as previously addressed, there is an issue of specificity here, in that you are not weight lifting when you are grappling and vise versa. However, the movements of a squat or deadlift, overhead press, dip, chin or row are still at their most basic level replicatable in some context, and the strength developed should still find itself present in your training. If there is still concern, other variables can be introduced to replicate the "chaos factor" (sandbags, half filled kegs, uneven weights, unstable surfaces, etc).

    To conclude, endurance training should be done in the sporting hall, and strength training in the gym. Both can be trained for at the same time, just in different manners.

    There's my little mini-article for you. Take it for what it's worth.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  4. Asriel is offline
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    I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 5:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks Emevas, that's very interesting and it makes an awful lot of sense. I've recently been trying the workouts that you mentioned in this thread:

    Another thread testing TEM's patience with me... (n00b strikes again.) - No BS Martial Arts

    But it's too early to tell how it's doing for me yet.
    " The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus

    " I shocked him with my skills on the ice becuase Wing Chun is great for hockey fighting." - 'Sifu' Milt Wallace

    "Besides, as you might already know (from Virus, for example) - there's only 1 wing chun and it sucks big time" - Tonuzaba

    "Even when I'm promising mayhem and butt-chicanery, I'm generally posting with a smile on my face." - Sochin101

    "That said, if he blocked my hip on a drop nage, I would extend my leg into a drop tai Otoshi and slam him so hard his parents would die." - MTripp

  5. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 5:43pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, experiment and see with that one. If you have a heavy class load with BJJ, you might have to cut down your weight training to twice a week rather than 3 times.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  6. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 5:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Someone on this site once said 'Endurance is god. At the right hand of endurance is strength, and at the left is pain tolerance' or something like that.
  7. SunTzu is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 5:52pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You could also add some energy system training post-lifting, a set of Tabata-like intervals of burpees or med-ball slams, etc. Or do some grappling sessions with a focus on limited rest periods, constantly cycling in new bodies and the like. Like Emevas says, unless you're already pretty conditioned, you should be able to get enough simply by increasing the length or intensity of your grappling sessions.
  8. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 6:14pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not totally sure about the total specifity argument when it comes to cardio. I've talked about this with Omega a little.

    Combat sports champions mostly seem to do roadwork of some form. Fedor runs, Almost all the great boxers ran. Chuck Liddel runs. Even a modern 'specificity' guru like Ross Enamait has said very clearly that he believes people need old-fashioned roadwork as well as bursts of hard anaerobic work which is mapped to the round-structure of the sport they want to fight in.

    Let's think about what changes when we follow a programme of physical training.

    i) There are morphological changes, such as the growth of new blood vessels, the loss of body fat and the thickening of muscle fibres.

    ii) There are changes in patterns of recruitment etc.. in our central nervous system. A lot of the strength gains that occur when following low-rep heavy weight training programmes apparently are due to us teaching our central nervous system to fire more fibres at once in the muscles used in the lift.

    iii) We become psychological accustomed to certain tasks, enduring certain kinds of discomfort and get better at 'pacing' ourselves when meeting certain physical challenges we have practice with.

    I think that as we go down this list, the types of adaptation become more sport specific.

    If I follow a training programme based on running that bring morphological changes such as growth of new blood vessels around the lungs etc.. then those physical adaptations can be useful when training for other tasks. The improvements in recovery time will help the more specific anaerobic training. Only a fool would take this observation to the extreme of thinking that the other more specific types of training aren't even more important, I'm just saying that some of the non-specific stuff is a very useful adjunct that can help you get more out of your 'main' training.

    Has anybody here ever gotten really out of shape and just attempted to launch straight into a HIIT or Tabata-type programme? Then those people will know what 'aerobic base' is for. I've been there.

    Somebody who'se always been in good shape who's moved seemlessly from high-school sports PT or military training to training for a martial arts fight without letting themselves lose condition or pile on the pounds in the interim may not see the relevance I suppose.

    There is also the more insidious temptation to reject things like running.. because they're boring and they suck, but people find a rationalisation instead of just admitting to themselves that 'running hurts and it's dull. it sucks in bad weather'.

    I'm not really countering what Emevas said, so much as pointing out that the becoming the 'wrestler who can run a 4:30 mile' isn't actually likely to be a problem for many people here.

    What I'm suggesting is that if you're the person who initially struggles to jog a mile in 9 minutes, running a few miles every other day and getting that time down will see you recovering faster on the mat and getting more out of your main training.

    Almost all combat sports champions run distances measured in miles without break as part of their training routines.

    Except Tank Abbott, but none of us were born with his super-powers so we'll leave him as the exception that proves the rule.
    Last edited by Cullion; 1/18/2009 6:20pm at .
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  9. M.C. is offline
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    This is all I do: girls, photography and BJJ...

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 6:25pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: KeyboardHero/CameraJutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would ask a question if I may.
    How does jumping rope compare to running from an endurance/training perspective? I found that I can jump rope for over 25 minutes while I can't bring myself to run that long (as cullion said, I find it super boring and it is one of the few exercises I hate no matter what I do).

    On the topic, I never been the "strong" guy but I am the guy who keeps going and going and going hence my vote is endurance. For example I can stall a certain position until the other person gets tiered/gassed (I do this a lot against people who have a significant! weight advantage on me, they try to muscle out once or twice and maybe do so but I regain the position and after two three tries they don't want to do this anymore)
    Sometimes you lose and sometimes the other guy wins.

    At this point I don't owe anybody an explenation.

    Schools I trained at:
    Lotus Club Cetepe Liberdade Sao Paulo
    Renzo Gracie NYC
    New York Combat Sambo
  10. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 6:37pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    I'm not totally sure about the total specifity argument when it comes to cardio. I've talked about this with Omega a little.

    Combat sports champions mostly seem to do roadwork of some form. Fedor runs, Almost all the great boxers ran. Chuck Liddel runs. Even a modern 'specificity' guru like Ross Enamait has said very clearly that he believes people need old-fashioned roadwork as well as bursts of hard anaerobic work which is mapped to the round-structure of the sport they want to fight in.

    This was my whole "when you reach a point of diminishing returns" thing. A lot of people look at the training of champions and think that it's how they need to train, but very few people are at the skillset of these champions. Then one says "well, when they were a beginner it's what they did as well", but when they were a beginner they also did a TON more skill work than your average hobbyist or even competition hopeful.

    Like I stated, it's just my take on things. I don't think time spent in the weight room trying to train for "endurance" gets as great a results as time in the weight room spent training for strength. And it's kinda my whole argument in terms of "training efficiency". If one finds themselves in a situation wherein they can train 8 hours a day or so, there's tons of room for extra exercises. However, when you bring up developing the cardio base for the new wrestler, I'd honestly say he'd benefit significantly more as a new trainee spending his running time in the gym learning to improve technique and cardio in his new found hobby.

    But it's all opinion.
    Last edited by Emevas; 1/18/2009 6:45pm at .
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
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