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  1. Raining_Blood is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 7:49pm


     Style: Wrestling, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to disagree with your opinion on cardio and conditioning Emevas. It isn't that running doesn't have a positive transfer to combat sports but rather that the way in which most people run doesn't meet the energy needs of combat sports. This is the same issue that arises in the analogy of the boxer you raised. The boxer has developed the energy systems appropriate for boxing which are not the same for running hence why he cannot excel at running.

    My take on conditioning is stolen from The Thinker on elitefts. You first need to analyze a sport and determine its energy requirements and then tailor your conditioning program to match these needs e.g. match the intensity and length of exercise to the sport. For combat sports things like HIIT and tabatas seem to best fit these requirements. The problem I have with using sports training itself as the primary conditioning tool is you run into the inevitable problem of increasing sports specificity without first developing the appropriate levels of physical preparedness.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 7:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm all for GPP for the sake of raising phsical preparedness, just not for the sake of developing specific skillsets.

    I agree with you totally on HIIT and tabata being great methods for increasing your conditioning, my question is though, why must it be running? Again, could one not do HIIT in the form of grappling, with bouts of high intensity mixed with lulls? Of, if not free rolling, a drill that at least more closely mimics the sport. Hell, I'd even go with throwing drills with a dummy or something.

    I dunno, maybe I'm just burned out with the solution to everything being "running"
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    1/19/2009 3:35am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the problem is that an awful lot of people aren't fit enough to really benefit from HIIT or Tabata.

    What happens to the guy who struggles to jog a mile in 9 minutes when he tries to do 'Tabata' after reading about it on the Internet?

    He does 8 x 20 second rounds of something at far too low an intensity for it to count as Tabata work and then wonders a few months later why he's making such slow progress with his conditioning. I have been that guy.

    There really is such a thing as 'aerobic base' and I'd wager that a lot of people reading the physical training forum still need to work on theirs.
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  4. honesty is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/19/2009 4:00am


     Style: SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    I think the problem is that an awful lot of people aren't fit enough to really benefit from HIIT or Tabata.

    What happens to the guy who struggles to jog a mile in 9 minutes when he tries to do 'Tabata' after reading about it on the Internet?

    He does 8 x 20 second rounds of something at far too low an intensity for it to count as Tabata work and then wonders a few months later why he's making such slow progress with his conditioning. I have been that guy.

    There really is such a thing as 'aerobic base' and I'd wager that a lot of people reading the physical training forum still need to work on theirs.
    Whilst I agree with Emavas generally on this, this last post by Cullion is exactly why I'm going to be running twice a week for the next few months. I think with all these things it depends on the level of the person doing it. A completely unfit fatty, like me, would die with HIIT and more sports specific cardio without developing a base to work from, but someone who already has a good cardio base is going to get better endurance training from doing specific sports.

    As for weights, I was discussing this with the guys at sambo over the weekend, the guys were looking at kettle bells, but in my view doing heavy strength training with lifts like squats, and lifts that incorperate explosiveness like cleans are much more beneficial.
  5. dumblucky is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/19/2009 12:19pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Bujinakn

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Asriel - sorry if I missed this, but what are your specific goals? What kind of shape are you in now? What is your training program like now? And how much time do you have to train? Also, what do you consider an endurance event or time frame?

    The reason I ask is because the whole strength v endurance debate doesn't make much sense outside the context of your goals. If you just feel like you need to work on both for GPP needs, you're probably (there's more than 1 way to do this) talking about cycles of 6-8 weeks where you concentrate on strength or aerobic base while figuring out a way to maintain/not lose much of the other.

    Because, I'm assuming, you still want to get better at BJJ, you'll also have to tweak things so that you're fresh and absorbing your grappling training. This means that you'll probably have to dial down the intensity of your strength/aerobic training. Maybe by a lot.

    Also, I wouldn't get too tied up in the endurance thing (and I'm a triathlon coach). As a by product of your general fitness training, you should be able to run 15 - 20 minutes at an even pace without killing yourself. (If you can't, then your aerobic base does need work). For a lot of endurance athletes, 15 minutes is barely a warm-up.

    If you get your training routine / goals up, it might be easier to get more specific.
  6. Asriel is offline
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    I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood

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    Posted On:
    1/19/2009 2:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually mate, my one goal off the mat is to improve my conditioning for on the mat. I was quite happy training 3-4 times a week and doing strength training 2-3 times a week until I became the unwilling centre of the strength vs endurance argument. So I thought I'd see what the peeps on BS thought.
    " The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus

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  7. dumblucky is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/19/2009 3:26pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Bujinakn

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heh - if you're still making progress and enjoying yourself, it doesn't sound like there's any reason to change.
  8. HappyOldGuy is offline
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    Slipping coal into stockings with a little sumptin for mom.

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    Posted On:
    1/19/2009 3:46pm


     Style: Rehab Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to toss it out there, I suspect alot of us hobbyist types do off day cardio (and strength) because we haven't got time in our schedules for actual skills sessions 6 or 7 days a week. So it's still a reasonable question even if both strength and endurance training that way are sub-optimal.

    Also, I wonder how much those pros doing running and other non skills related cardio has to do with fear of injury. I wonder if pushing themselves in sparring hard enough to really drain their tanks every day would carry an unnaceptable risk.
  9. piglet is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/19/2009 3:55pm


     Style: Rising Phoenix Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas

    I dunno, maybe I'm just burned out with the solution to everything being "running"

    Ditto.

    I jump rope. Hate it even more than I do running, but it seems to kick my @ss more efficiently, plus it makes me feel like Rocky.
  10. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/22/2009 11:45pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Firstly, I agree with the argument that -- beyond basic GPP -- doing a skill is the most important part of building cardio for that skill. My suspicion is that this has mostly to do with central nervous system adaptation for the tasks (i.e. more efficient motor programs).

    That said, it's difficult to roll hard 6 days a week without getting injured. We've got some 18-19 year old guys who do it. I can only do 3-4 days/week. One of my coaches, who's ~45 now, says he can only go hard 1-2 times/week. So the question becomes, what about the other days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I agree with you totally on HIIT and tabata being great methods for increasing your conditioning, my question is though, why must it be running?
    A recent N=1 observation about metabolic specialization: I've always hated running. Instead, I skip rope and do loads of plyometrics with no/minimal rest between sets to build my endurance for combat sports. Recently, I had cause to run through a set of diagnostics to assess my fitness, which included running for an hour on a treadmill at a decent (8 minute mile) pace. At the end of the hour my heart rate was ~120 and I wasn't breathing hard. My takeaway from this is that there's massive carryover between different GPP programs, and that load specialization probably matters only at fairly elite levels. YMMV, of course.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
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