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  1. JohnnyCache is online now
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 7:14am

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     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The horizontal fist only came into popular use in sport boxing after the introduction of thickly padded gloves. There was a good reason for this. A vertical fist protects the hand from injury. Two biomechanical principles are key.

    Has the author of this article ever looked at an x-ray of a human hand?

    The lower two knuckles float - they are attached via float to secondary carpals that are attached to the ulna via a float.

    The thumbward two are anchored directly to carpals that are anchored directly to the primary, largest carpals, which are anchored to the larger radius. The safest punch is to hit with the thumbward knuckles. The pinky shouldn't be struck with. The third knuckle shouldn't make primary contact. The experiment given RE leaning on a wall is completely subjective -milimeters of hand shape and knuckle development render the results different from one person to another.

    As for the "biomechanics" of the vertical punch, you form a vertical fist by turning from the shoulder, not the wrist - your wrist is in the same position vis a vis the ulna and radius that it's ALWAYS in when your wrist isn't bent.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  2. Ken Pfrenger is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 9:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: western MA, Sambo, boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LOL the author of that article is a Medical Doctor:)
    Last edited by Ken Pfrenger; 1/18/2009 9:30am at . Reason: spelling
  3. D Dempsey is offline
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    Monkey Knife Fight!

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 12:55pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I met and trained with Keith when I was stationed at Ft. Bliss before he deployed in '06. In addition to being a medical doctor I think he was originally a chiropractor.
  4. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 1:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The idea of spreading out the impact across more surface is logical in and-of-itself, but not when you're spreading it away from a big solid knuckle and onto 2 pieces of ****. Someone is going to have to show scientific proof that the pinky and ring finger knuckles together can absorb more than the first knuckle before I switch.

    Wrist alignment is a non-factor. A person who practices a vertical fist adjusts their wrist properly for that punch, while a person who strikes with a horizontal first uses a slightly different alignment. A person who practices one will always think the other is more awkward for their wrist.
  5. JohnnyCache is online now
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 4:30pm

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     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Pfrenger
    LOL the author of that article is a Medical Doctor:)
    Why is he advocating hitting with the most vulnerable part of the hand on purpose?
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  6. Ken Pfrenger is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 6:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: western MA, Sambo, boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe he graduated last in his class or maybe you just don't get what he is saying.
  7. MrBadGuy is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 8:12pm

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     Style: Grapplomancer

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    Why is he advocating hitting with the most vulnerable part of the hand on purpose?

    He's obviously trying to get people to break their hands so he can treat them. Creating demand for his supply. Classic Doctor trick.
  8. D Dempsey is offline
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    Monkey Knife Fight!

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 8:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBadGuy
    He's obviously trying to get people to break their hands so he can treat them. Creating demand for his supply. Classic Doctor trick.
    Yeah but he's a doctor in the Army so he doesn't get anything for treating people, just his regular salary.
  9. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 8:27pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well I certainly find that the only times I feel strain on my hand is when I accidentally hit with the "bottom" three knuckles. Then there's that whole thing about the "brawler's fracture" being a break on the pinky or ring finger part of the hand.

    Also this:

    "Face the wall and extend your arm completely straight out in front at your own chin level. Make a horizontal fist (palm down) and place it against the wall. Now lean your weight onto your fist so that it is as flat against the wall as possible. You will find that not only will your wrist bend upward, it will bend outward as well in order to keep the fist flat against the wall."

    ... has practically no bearing whatsoever on how anyone would ever throw a punch. I do not practice punching at an angle and I certainly don't practice punching walls. Also, if you have any experience boxing you know that your fist doesn't land horizontally when throwing a straight punch, but twisted (hence "corkscrewing" your punch). If you land with your fist horizontal, you're not turning your fist over properly.

    And just looking at your hand



    you have to specifically try and angle your hand in a fairly drastic way to make sure all three knuckles land flush on a target. Personally, if I make a solid fist and try to press the knuckles against the wall, I can't actually manage to make contact with all three knuckles.
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2009 10:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBadGuy
    He's obviously trying to get people to break their hands so he can treat them. Creating demand for his supply. Classic Doctor trick.
    Repeat customers. CLASSIC CHIROPRACTOR TRICK. I've known enough ex-chiropractors to know this: those that seek "the final adjustment" for their patients get alienated pretty quickly.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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