Thread: Karate dosen't work?
12/31/2003 1:20am, #11
i kiai before doing a take down!
12/31/2003 3:27am, #12
Originally posted by Osiris
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
- washington state
- MMA-Vale Tudo
Dude, the Japanese dont fight like that. Karate doesnt work. While occasionally some huge freak of nature comes and MAKES it work by, it wont help the masses in the least. Now, the Japanese LOVE sport fighting, but no karate styles have been featured with the exception of kyuwhatever. Why is that? And why doesnt an art claiming to produce fighters produce fighters with verifiable skill? And dont give me the "Its for t3h str333t" bullshit. They have no problem showing off parlor tricks, but they cant show any fighting ability? Bullshit. Youre better off telling me that they can only win using groin strikes and eye gouges which is also bullshit. Also, whats up with the convinient simplification? Its always "Karateka Punch...Karate work" when its convenient for its supporters or those of other questionable arts, but street fighters do that too. Does that mean that they can just head out and fight a muay thai stylist? No it doesnt even though the same basic techniques are used. Its MUCH more complicated than the general arsenal and you know this.
He has done boxing and MT there and if you ask me was doing alot better when he was there working out with Josh and matt ivan etc. But since he is so big and has a base there he just farts around and makes big dough turning himself a janapense as possible switching his art to Karate.
But i cant blame him, because he brings in more money and plus for him it dosnt matter how he hits you because he is so powerful that if he swings a wild hay maker or dos a karate chop or a cross, it wont matter cause your knocked out.
Also i believe there may be some good Karate/kickboxing schools somewhere but they are as hard to find as a MMA school.Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
-Styles i train in-
12/31/2003 6:12am, #13
It's not as simple as works/doesn't work (as if such designations were as polar and definite as 0 and 1 in machine language). The usefulness of karate lies in how you apply what it provides you. Karate teaches you how to coordinate the force of your entire body into punches and kicks. Since when did punches and kicks not work because they were karate punches and kicks and not Muay Thai punches and kicks? Yeah, it is as simple as the basic arsenal, because the only person who decides how the moves are used is you. Not Gichin Funakoshi, not Choki Motobu, YOU decide how YOU fight. If you suck, don't blame Gogen Yamaguchi, blame yourself. If you thrash people, maybe it's more you doing the work than Kanbun Uechi.
If your sensei is teaching you how to do a move exactly the way his teacher taught him because his teacher's teacher taught it to him that way and so on back through Okinawa, China and Ancient Greece, FIND A DIFFERENT SCHOOL because your teacher and everyone like him is responsible for all of the stagnation for which the traditional martial arts are villified today. The continued existence and practicality of all martial arts has throughout history relied upon their constant evolution and application by individuals.
Okay, so karate fighting strategy and training methods 'don't work.' But what exactly don't they work at? They sure as hell work in the Sabaki Challenge and Kyokushin tournaments! Do they not work against Muay Thai men or against muggers armed with more weapons than Batman? Sure, but maybe, just maybe, it's because they're not supposed to, just like the bottom end of a screwdriver is not supposed to be used as a hammer. When someone invents 'anti-Muay Thai' or 'anti-mugger' karate, we'll see what works and what doesn't work.
Look at BAJI! Check out a form, it looks like the same flower fist kung fu crap we're all used to laughing at. But watch Baji in action, and it's a different story. Why does Baji 'work' and karate 'not work'? Maybe it has something to do with the fighters themselves! Are Baji men more ready to dance around their opponents, then slam them with an elbow strike out of nowhere or slip a jab and follow it with a palm thrust to the face? Do karate men ground themselves in the delusion that every fight has to look like two ends of a kata? A Baji man holds the record of being 5x Champion of the World Muaythai Tournament (http://crane.50megs.com/index6t.htm). Is Karate so much weaker than Baji that it can achieve no similar feat? The histories of Mas Oyama and Yoshiji Soeno should prove otherwise. The deciding factor in whether you win or lose or whether your art 'works' or not is how you use it. The same Karate that Mas Oyama used to beat the Muay Thai fighter Black Cobra was beaten by a geriatric Tai Chi master. It's all relative.
Karate (like a lot of arts) is one third what you make of it, one third how you use it, and one third what you use it for. When you look at it that way, everything from BJJ to XMA 'works' in one way or another."The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
12/31/2003 6:31am, #14
- Join Date
- Sep 2003
I think what alot of you people are forgetting is that there is no single style called karate. Karate is a term that labels a big family of japanese/okinawan martial arts. Compare Shotokan to Kyokushinkai, its a different game.
12/31/2003 8:24am, #15
I agree that when it comes to karate the only style to impress me is Kyokushin.The Kyokushin guys are normally harder than the rest. Except there is not much grappling/chokeholds in Kyokushin because grappling is not allowed in Kyokushin tournaments.It used to be but what happend was contestants with previous experiance in Judo had an advantage over many others.
Any grappling I have seen being taught in Karate be it Goju/Shotokan/Kyokushin is just basic judo at best.
Look at the early days of K - 1. All your big Kyokushin stars had to cross train in boxing and Muay Thai to compete with the others and no where did I see them use any reverse punches or kata crap.You see this is my pioint. K-1 and UFC have told us that all that karate/kung fu stuff does jack ****. For a stand up striking art its Muay Thai or kickboxing. For a grappling art its BJJ or if you can't find a BJJ place then try Judo or Wrestling. Thats it. **** the rest.
ANd karate still looks like kickboxing with side kicks. All you need to do is watch karate guys sparring and you will discover this. What is the point in spending money on uniforms and grading fees and learning meaningless kata when you can go along to a Muuay Thai gym and get the right stuff the fist time around.Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
12/31/2003 8:26am, #16
The single thing that defines whether or not any style will work is its training methodology.
12/31/2003 8:41am, #17
Exactly. This I think is the problem with many martial art schools. They are more concerned with teaching outdated traditional crap than stuff thats genuinly going to help their students learn how to fight.Fight the way you train..that simple.The reason why many martial art instructers teach that way is because they themselves have been taught incorrectly.
You really have to shop around to many martial art schools and seriously judge the quality of the training you are getting for the money you are paying.There are plenty of martial arts schools in Sydney most are just rubbish. What they teach will not work. In many places martial arts karate especially is poorly taught and as a reult is porly learnt.Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
12/31/2003 8:56am, #18
12/31/2003 9:07am, #19
- Join Date
- Nov 2003
Singular karate style can be a good preparation and addition to your arsenal.
Take Kiokushin for conditioning (brutal), take Sabaki to learn in "karate" something that you would normally see in Tai Chi or Baiji. Take Uechi Ryu to learn a form of southern kung fu passed along as karate, with throws and chokes allowed (if not drilled).
I do not see any of these doing well as the main style, for they lack that necessary part of training we all know about. I see them as pretty interesting additions.
But screw Shotokan.
12/31/2003 9:21am, #20
- Join Date
- Oct 2003
Karate doesnt work? Than how come did the kyokushin karatekas won fights in thailand against Muay Thai fighters? And how can Andy Hug and Francisco Filho do so well in K1? And how could Oyama sosai kill bulls with one punch? And how can Osiris say karate sucks when he takes TKD and I have yet to see some TKD guy beat a Kyokushin guy?
edit: deleted somethings because I didnt read the second page before posting, my bad, sorry