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  1. --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ninjas: An irrefutable analysis.

    This is a rewrite and edit of a post I've made earlier in my Career. In this thread, I will point out why ninjas could not have and never could have existed and why it's all a big sham:

    Throughout the history of Japan there has never been mention of Ninjas prior to the Tokugawa era. They came alive through fabricated storytelling. Ninja Ryu's date all the way back to about right after WWII when some Japanese got the brilliant idea of selling America this folklore about people with extraordinary abilities that shrouded themselves in mystics and energy and the color black. Like with the majority of Japanese Story telling, mysticism, colors and exaggeration are staple components.

    First off, a Bushi would have done whatever it is that the Ninja were supposed to to: that is, some daimyo isn't going to employ some crazy hobo who lives in the mountains and wears black pajamas to sneak around the enemy camp. He's going to send one of his better Samurai to do it. Not surprisingly we find "Ninjutsu" elements in the authentic Bujutsu schools in Japan (Katori Shinto Ryu, for example). Espionage and assassination were not seperate arts the Bushi practiced. Secondly, ninjutsu, like the tradional Japanese Bujutsu, would be a weapons art. Ninja, if they existed, would have to fight samurai, who were ALWAYS armed with multiple weapons. The story weaving and elaborate tales of unarmed arts in Japan occurred during the Tokugawa (an era of peace, complete with hippies) period, not during the period of warfare that had preceded it. According to the "accounts" the Ninja would have been destroyed (for the most part, enough to no longer be effective) anyway.

    So tell me how unarmed Ninja techniques that were "Ninja" specific could have been real. If there were a real authentic Ninjutsu art that was all unique "Ninjitsu" techniques, it'd look more like Kali than bad karate/judo (which is what is resembles for the most part today.). Third, the guys that lived in the mountains and fought the Samurai back in the good ol' days of Japan were known as the Yamabushi ("Mountain warriors" it what it'll roughly translate out to, but ironically a majority of them lived in monasteries on the plains.) This is where the ninja mythology comes from. They were basically like the Shaolin Monks, a bunch of Buddhists who had nothing better to do all day than to train all day long and make candles and blessings. Yamabushi actually did fight the samurai on a regular basis. They were, however, eventually mostly killed off to the point of being completely useless. To my knowledge, no yamabushi ryu have been passed down to the present. Again, these would have been ARMED arts (Go ahead and go wrestle a fully armored ************ carrying 2 swords, a few daggers, a couple of spears and riding a fully armored horse and tell me how well you do wearing a cotton robe armed with a long stick). They did NOT run around in black pajamas. If they conducted covert type ops, it was not the focus of their studies. There isn't any big secret to being stealthy. You run around at night and don't make a lot of noise. <---- Free Lesson.

    Anyway, the fact is, no serious historian of the Japanese martial arts has been able to find a piss of evidence that any sort of real authentic Ninjutsu school existed before said events in history.

    "Oh, but they must have burned all the evidence of their existence or ate their scrolls so nobody would be able to learn ****!" Nope. There were guys employed by warlords in Japan and guys employed by monasteries who's sole jobs were to write down all history and events as a neutral party. They used pretty much the same weapons and fought in pretty much the same ways. There was no secret society of mystical assassins in Japan or Korea or anywhere else. It never happened. So give up the 8-year old game of hide-and-seek in the middle of the night wearing Tabi and PJ's.

    Beyond the mere historical facts, there is this to consider as well, ninjitsu is totally untested. By this I mean that even granting it historical legitimacy (which I never will), it, like most all the other Japanese arts, would have de-evolved as it were during the Tokugawa period. Since no one fought for real anymore, the arts became antiquated. Kano discovered this with Jujitsu (and the Gracie's did separately across the ocean in their quaint little Brazilian homeland). The old Jujitsu styles (developed largely during peacetime and removed from combat for hundreds of years) contained many techniques that wouldn't work against real, resisting opponents who, OH MY GOD, fought back. And of course ninjitsu, having never gone through the testing phase that Judo, BJJ, MT, Boxing, and others have gone through, is largely devoid of real world applicability or legitimacy. It didn't come fresh from the battlefields like Kali or some styles of Silat.

    All else aside and Ninjas truly did exist in the ways of how Ashida Kim and other idiots understand it, no one has used ninjitsu to kill anyone for about 500 years. Kali was probably used to kill someone today, and will be again tomorrow. Its a living art still used in real combat. Ninjitsu isn't. Get over it.

    Beyond all that, all I have to say is that Ninjas are so sweet they make me want to kick my mom.

  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 7:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Moved from MABS to CARE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcastro
    This is a rewrite and edit of a post I've made earlier in my Career.
    Out of curiosity, where is the original thread(s) or post(s) which this came from?
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 1/15/2009 7:13pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

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  3. King Sleepless is offline
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    I am a living legend!

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 7:57pm

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     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  4. FLMKane is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2009 7:20am


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The real reason I stopped believing in ninjas was when I realized that black pajamas would attract too much attention if the outfit became that infamous. My disbelief was reinforced thanks to Bullshido.
  5. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2009 7:26am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two things....

    They never wore the black pj's (if real and I have my doubts too). In Kabuki theater, the people who moved stuff about (stage hands) wore that outfit so you would ignore them. When they wanted to depict a Ninja in theater, they wore the exact same outfit to sell the concept of being "invisable."

    Second, the Gracies did not do anything independent from Judo. We (meaning the Kodokan) have letters that show Madea (whom the Gracie's themselves say brought "jiujitsu" to Brazil) was a Kodokan Judo black belt, sent there to teach Judo.

    Other than that, good stuff.
  6. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2009 9:59am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In terms of historical evidence for ninja ryu, there's jack **** and Sirg's comments about outsourcing covert ops makes sense.
  7. patfromlogan is offline
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    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2009 6:11pm

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Next you'll be claiming that this doesn't work.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  8. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2009 3:04pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Moved from MABS to CARE.
    I had no idea that this section's name worked out to CARE. That's unconsciously fucking brilliant of me.
  9. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2009 3:34pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing that always gets me is the notion that Japanese armies consisted of Samurai, who were pure, honorable, and then ninja, who they paid to do the "dirty work"

    For one thing, the Samurai weren't that "honorable" - just as tales of chivalry were made up later, tales of bushido were made up later. The actual fighting men both mythos are based on were not Johnny Honorable, they were Johnny Gets **** Done. Also, the Samurai were incredibly facist when looked at by our sort of morality.

    Secondly, even where the Samurai did try to save public face, they still had a huge standing army - just as every spartan was supported by dozens of helots, every samurai had servants, camp followers, and common craftsmen that assisted him.

    Then there were the other levels of soldiers on the field - there were several ranks of common solider a samurai could send if he needed to act out of station.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  10. jjroger1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2009 9:26pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Northern Shaolin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ninja were not in existence until after WWII?? Odd, I wonder where O'sensei Takamatsu learned everything from? As he was born in the late 1800's.
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