Economically sustainable Judo

**JudOWNED** · Posted On: 1/15/2009 4:34pm

Okay, from a students perspective, I love that Judo usually follows a club format with the associated club pricing. Paying 20 bucks a month (the cost of my last club) was great! I'm willing to put up with working out in a rec center where we have to lay out and pick up the mats every session to keep that price. Does that make me a bad Judoka?

OTOH, just tried out a new place where the guy teaches out of a McDojo. Pretty interesting. Good Judo instructor. Think I may post a thread about it, but it doesn't really belong in this thread, except to say that ignatzami may be on the right track.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 1/15/2009 4:44pm

Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

oishi-sensei in new york city has been running a highly successful dojo for years. he charges a LOT of money (last time i heard it was $25/class unless you paid for a whole year and even then the price didn't come down much.) part of this is due to location, as he is in one of the most expensive areas in manhattan.

I would say Oishi's place is competitively priced for martial arts schools in Manhattan.

The cost comes down a lot if you pay for a full year, especially if you go more. He has a full schedule of classes from which to choose. I think the small discount of which you are thinking is for the bundles of 10 classes - that's only a little bit. I believe he has bundles of 20 and 40 classes at a further discount. Still, the cost would probably be considered a premium over what people expect to pay for Judo, but the next Judo place is probably a operating out of a YMCA or something.

I haven't visited Oishi for quite awhile. Next time it occurs to me, I'll ask him if he wants to comment on what he thinks it takes to running an economically sustainable Judo school.

**ignatzami** · Posted On: 1/15/2009 5:10pm

I'd love to see Judo get the same respect that BJJ does. But I will also say there is a certain gritty charm to Judo that BJJ lacks. Something you can only find in small classes, tight mat space, and low cost.

**JudOWNED** · Posted On: 1/15/2009 9:03pm

Judo needs to market itself as the logical linchpin between boxing and BJJ.

I actually thought you were going in a different direction with this and were going to end with something like, "Boxing for stand up, BJJ for the ground and Judo for going from one to the other!"

**Ming Loyalist** · Posted On: 1/15/2009 10:02pm

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

I would say Oishi's place is competitively priced for martial arts schools in Manhattan.

The cost comes down a lot if you pay for a full year, especially if you go more. He has a full schedule of classes from which to choose. I think the small discount of which you are thinking is for the bundles of 10 classes - that's only a little bit. I believe he has bundles of 20 and 40 classes at a further discount. Still, the cost would probably be considered a premium over what people expect to pay for Judo, but the next Judo place is probably a operating out of a YMCA or something.

I haven't visited Oishi for quite awhile. Next time it occurs to me, I'll ask him if he wants to comment on what he thinks it takes to running an economically sustainable Judo school.

you're right, it is about right in terms of martial arts in nyc. i think that the guys i know who cross train there tend to complain about the price (as they can't make it frequently and therefore pay the max.)

i honestly don't know what the breaks are for paying for 6 months or a year, i had just heard one of them say something like "the price doesn't come down much" but again, you have direct experience and i don't so i apologize for passing on bad info.

i guess my real point was that judo dojos are run here sustainably, so we should look to those senseis as a model.

**Coach Josh** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 9:19am

Having a 7th degree Japanese BB is marketing in itself. That makes it easy to have a successful Judo club because the Japophiles line up for that. In addition to that by the time you reach shichidan you have a cadre of BB around you to assist and make things run smoother.

Most guys/gals out there are trying to open the doors with just themselves and maybe one or two friends assisting that are green and brown belts. This tends to lower your credibility and makes it difficult to make the initial sale.

Yes you have to cater to the MMA and no gi crowd. This is what I am talking about when I say that Judo people will not change. IF no gi and MMA are the in thing people are looking for then you have to supply them with that service. If not then they will go other places. The best thing is for them to have the option to train in an area that they think they like then position them into training what they need to train in.

Guys come in the gym wanting to do MMA. They sign up come to an MMA practice get banged up and end up in grappling and boxing to learn the basics.

Personally I understand the theory behind sales and promotion. I just suck at the sales part. I can talk fine and present myself in a professional manner but I am not a salesman. I know I am not good at it which is why I think I have problems doing it. Self defeatist attitude I guess.

**honesty** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 9:48am

from what I've seen here in the UK, judo clubs re-coop there money with the kids classes. I have seen them quite successfully integrate their club into a middle school and offer after school lessons. Here in the UK school ends at around 3:30pm, so the judo club offers a lesson from 3:30pm til 5pm. Kids love it, and parents love it because they dont have to leave work early to get the little shits...

I should also say the ones I've seen do this, do it on the school grounds, use the school gym hall, and the school mats for the class...

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 11:12am

I'm going to attack Judo here as the problem for a second. Let me start by saying I think Judo is great but I have also seen it introduced to people that hated it. I'm 90% sure the main reason behind high attrition rates is break falls. There are 2 factors going on in my mind. One people feel stupid mostly learning how to fall in the beginning of Judo. Secondly instructors forget just how good their own break fall is. Something as simple as always throwing beginners on a crash mat can completely change the way people see Judo practice. You can even change the mentality to make it a privilege to be thrown without the mat. Not a "high belts only" thing but a rite of passage for when you have mastered your break fall.

In my experience injuries are almost always the reason adults stop taking a martial art. Judo for adults at lower levels is the most injury prone martial art I've ever done.

**JohnnyFive** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 1:36pm

I agree that learning to fall is, at the beginning, really incredibly boring and not likely to bring people back, because nobody is thinking "Aw, awesome, I learned to properly hit the mat! Sweet!"

However, from what I have observed of impromptu Judo lessons to the BJJ crowd, what happens if you don't (We just want to learn some cool moves, &c.) is that everybody then complains that Judo is incredibly painful and nobody shows up the next day.

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 1:47pm

Originally Posted by JohnnyFive

However, from what I have observed of impromptu Judo lessons to the BJJ crowd, what happens if you don't (We just want to learn some cool moves, &c.) is that everybody then complains that Judo is incredibly painful and nobody shows up the next day.

I agree that's what led us down the crash mat path in my last school. You can throw old people on the ground without them crying about it if you do it on a 6" of foam. This seemed to be the exception not the rule compared to all of my other Judo experiences.