Question regarding rounds

**CannibalCrowley** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 12:26am

Originally Posted by JRT6

We have shot up cars and have found the doors and seats (particularly the headrest) to do quite well in stopping almost all common handgun bullets. The engine compartment and windshield goes without saying. The trunk area offers the least protection

Box O' Truth to the rescue: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

**Cy Q. Faunce** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 3:25am

Originally Posted by Don Gwinn

I'm sure somebody can add ten things I forgot, but there's a starter list for you.

I can come up with some obscure examples, but very few of current manufacture or real merit.

The Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm used Smith & Wesson pistol magazines, and its .45 ACP counterpart used 1911 mags. Marlin's website doesn't show this gun in its current inventory. I have heard that it was reliable and tough.

The Armalon PC is a currently manufactured SMLE-pattern bolt-action rifle in 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and other cartridges. I'm not sure how hard it is to get them outside the UK.

The Wilkinson Arms Linda pistol and Terry carbine shared a lot of parts as well as a common chambering of 9mm. The pistol was very bulky. They haven't been made for a long time.

The Iver-Johnson Enforcer was nominally a .30 Carbine pistol, though really it was an M1 Carbine with a pistol grip. Less ridiculously, the Ruger Blackhawk single-action revolver is offered in 30 Carbine.

There were some semiauto versions of submachine guns made in carbine form to conform to US firearms laws. The Uzi carbine and HK-94 were typical examples.

I believe Tim LeGendre of LeMAG Firearms offers M1 Carbine conversions in 45 Winchester Magnum and 50 Action Express. Pair one of those up with an appropriate pistol and you might have something useful. I recall that the 50 AE prototypes developed stock cracking, but I suspect he has probably beaten that problem by now.

**M.C.** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 5:33am

Hey thanks guys, a lot to read up on.

Thing is, even if I seriously would consider getting a gun, this is still Germany... getting one takes minimum of 1 year membership at a range, background check and other BS. Then you can get the gun but sill you are not allowed to carry. You are required to store the gun and ammunition separately in a safe(with extra locked compartment for the gun) and all kinds of things.
Oh and there is no way in hell you can get an AR/AK or anything like it in Germany.

**JRT6** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 8:44am

Originally Posted by CannibalCrowley

Box O' Truth to the rescue: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

I don't doubt their results BUT it all depends on the the car being shot up and other things. For instance we found that hollow points pretty much fell apart through car doors and even with FMJ the windshield was dramatically changing the tragectery of the bullets upon exit. Many FMJ woould penetrate but then shed their jackets. All things considered I while wearing a vest I would rather use a car for hard cover than nothing at all all.

Cinder blocks are terrible cover, just shoot twice: once to shatter the block and the second to pass through. However our indoor range is concrete block in the safe area and we've had guys AD right into them and the bullet just took chunks out (.40 cal and the blocks were painted with industrial paint)

**M.C.** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 9:13am

Okay, especially the page with the car makes me wonder, why people advocate using different types of hand gun rounds when the impact is considered (using the little I know and have read up on) to be all the same? And now lets assume I am not shooting car doors but "soft tissue"... Or am I missing something here?

**hapkido_keith** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 9:43am

Originally Posted by hungryjoe

Just to be a dick, I'm going to mention my Thompson pistol with interchangeable barrels in .22kHornet, 45 Long Colt/.410, 30/30 and 45/70.

Are you talking about these things?
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encorePistols.php
I'm just now getting used to the recoil of my 30-30 lever action carbine after about half a dozen trips to the range, I'd hate to fire one from a pistol.

I will now go back and read the writings in the body of this thread and apologise if needed.

Apology not nessisary. If I start talking out of my ass I expect to be called on it.

Ruger makes pistol-caliber carbines that accept the magazines for their P-Series pistols.

As of 2007 they discontinued this line. I was thinking about a PC-9 last year and asked about them on this very forum. I was advised not to bother and go for a high powered round instead. I'd still like one for shits and giggles but they've become hard to find.

**JRT6** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 12:32pm

Originally Posted by 4n4l

Okay, especially the page with the car makes me wonder, why people advocate using different types of hand gun rounds when the impact is considered (using the little I know and have read up on) to be all the same? And now lets assume I am not shooting car doors but "soft tissue"... Or am I missing something here?

What works best on cars, heavy slow solid projectiles, unfortunately don't work well on tissue. Shotgun slugs being the major exception. I personally don't worry about it as in the dynamics of a gun fight I think how a bullet would do against soft or semi-hard cover such as cars are a minor consideration considering the probablilty of them being a variable. This is the same reason I think 9mm vs .45 debates are silly. Cleveland has shot a lot of people with 9mm and they ended up just as dead just as fast as nearby departments carrying half the capacity with twice the recoil in their .45's. One case I do know of where the ,45 made a difference was when Eastlake PD was shooting out (from inside the police car) their windshield. Columbus PD had similar success shooting out through a windshield too althouth the cop in question suffered major hearing damage and is now on disabliity.

**M.C.** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 12:39pm

So you are saying it doesn't matter if I am shooting 9mm .45 or .228 as long as I am "on target" and that it is better to have a few more "tries" in your mag. than the bigger blow?

Would make sense.

**Nihonto** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 12:48pm

Something people aren't stressing enough here. Rifle cartridges work great. In rifles ...

Barrel length plays a huge part in bullet velocity - therefore energy. A bullet like an AR15's 5.56 has a muzzle velocity of about 3200 fps with a 20 inch barrel. Velocity drops about 30fps per inch. So if you drop the barrel length to practical pistol length you lose a lot of velocity. The 5.56 is a tiny bullet (55 grains). At low velocities the little bullet won't fragment, tumble, or expand. It will just make a small .22 sized hole. In this case you are better off going with a slow, bigger, heavier bullet, with more momentum, making a bigger hole. Not to mention all the other problems with a rifle caliber in a pistol - size, flash, blast, recoil.

That's why one of the best man stoppers in a pistol is a 230 grain .45 slug travelling at a mere 900 fps.

Terminal ballistics is often misunderstood. Big slow bullets work good. Ask any big game hunter who hunts dangerous game in Africa. Or just read Fackler: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/pdf/ap...ballistics.pdf

**Colby** · Posted On: 1/16/2009 3:42pm

OP, this topic is something that I have thought about quite a bit in the past. I'd ideally only like to have a few types of rounds, but several types of weapons to employ that platform. However, like HungryJoe said, the world isn't a one size fits all kind of thing, and to do some things right, you need a different caliber. Besides, buying more guns helps the economy, and pisses off east and west coast liberals. It's a win/win.

That being said, I like .45, .223 and 12GA. You can make these rounds work in a very wide range of circumstances. If I had to add one more, it'd be a .308.