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  1. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/14/2009 8:14pm

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     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maofas
    2) The upright stance perfect makes sense to me, if the game was more range-based due to lack of gloves + face punches. Upright, your face will be further back and away from harm.
    Standing upright actually puts your face in the way of more harm. An overhand right is about the worst punch you can eat and the best people to land it on are the ones that are upright. Speaking of which, without gloves Ithink the overhand right is about the only right hand punch I could land without breaking my (already delicate due to a pre-existing break) hand. It's safer, sneakier, and hits harder then a straight right. It just takes a little more skill to throw it right.
  2. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/14/2009 9:20pm

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     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The hunched stance is helped by having big gloves to hide behind. It's true you would lose the shoulders to hide behind though. Maybe it wasn't such a big deal since they were coming in a mile away with a big telegraphed bomb like in the last video, which gave them plenty of time to duck behind their shoulder?

    I still just want to know why they stood with their heels on the floor. Even if it's bad logic, I'm just curious as to what their thinking was.
    Last edited by maofas; 1/14/2009 9:24pm at .
  3. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2009 9:58pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Pistolgrip punch in classic pugilism:

    Here's what Dempsey says about it:

    "THE POWER-LINE RUNS FROM EITHER SHOULDER—
    STRAIGHT DOWN THE LENGTH OF THE ARM
    —TO THE FIST
    KNUCKLE OF THE LITTLE FINGER, when the fist is
    doubled.
    Remember: The power line ends in the fist knuckle of the
    little finger of either hand. Gaze upon your "pinky" with
    new respect. You might call that pinky knuckle the exit of
    your power line—the muzzle of your cannon.
    You'll understand the power line if you feel it out.
    Stand up. Walk toward a wall until you're arm's length
    from the wall when facing it. Put your heels together. You
    should be standing just far enough from the wall so that
    you can barely touch it with the tip of the "middle" finger
    of your "right" hand—at a "point directly opposite of your
    chin. Touch that chin-high point with your middle-finger
    tip.
    Now move back three or four inches, but keep your heels
    together.
    Double your "right" fist firmly. In making a fist, close the
    fingers into the palm of the hand, then close the thumb
    down over the outside of the finger (Figure 5).
    Extend the fist at arm's length "toward" the spot on the
    wall—only toward it. The fist should be "upright", as if
    you were holding a stick running from ceiling to floor.
    The little knuckle is down, toward the floor.
    With your arm "stiffly extended", let your body sway
    slowly forward—without moving your feet—until your
    fist (still upright) is pressed so firmly against the chin-high
    spot on the wall that your fist and stiff arm are
    SUPPORTING THE WEIGHT OF YOUR LEANING
    BODY (Figure 6.)
    Note that the lower part of your fist (still upright)—
    particularly the "little knuckle"—provides the natural,
    solid end of the firm, straight line -from should to fist—
    that is supporting your weight. Note particularly that this
    line runs unswervingly THROUGH YOUR WRIST TO
    YOUR LITTLE KNUCKLE (Figure 7).
    Now, with your upright fist still supporting your weight at
    the chin-high spot, try to shift your pressure from the little
    knuckle to the upper knuckles. The turn your fist so that
    the palm of your hand is down. When you attempt
    those changes, you should feel immediately that both new
    pressure position of your fist "lack" the "solidity" of the
    first position. And you should feel and see that a change in
    position "swerved" the "power line" at the wrist—putting
    your wrist in a hazardous landing position."
    Last edited by lklawson; 1/14/2009 10:00pm at .
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2009 10:00pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and also:

    Chapter 7: WHAT IS A PUNCH?

    "NATURE has given you, a normal beginner, the three requisites for a knockout punch. They are:

    1. WEIGHT - THE WEIGHT OF YOUR ENTIRE BODY

    2. POWERFUL MUSCLES IN YOUR FEET, LEGS, AND BACK - THE MEANS OF HELPING YOU TO "PUT YOUR BODYWEIGHT INTO MOTION

    3. ARMS AND FIST - THE MEANS OF "EXPLODING" YOUR MOVING WEIGHT AGAINST AN OPPONENT.

    For practical purpose, I divide a punch into two parts: a) setting the weight in motion and b) relaying the moving weight to a desired point on an opponent with a stepped-up impact or explosion.

    All full fledge punches must have that (a) and (b) combination. It is only what might be called "partial" punches that the body-weight does not play a stellar role. Partial punches are those delivered with only the weight of arms and fist - short backhands to the head, chops to the kidney or to the back of the neck, or mere cuffs to the head when in a tight clinch.

    Since we're concerned primarily with the stunning, full-fledged knockout punch, let's move on to it. Let's examine the first fundamental. How do we set the body-weight in motion?

    "There are FOUR ways of setting the body weight in motion for punching:

    1. Falling Foward.

    2. Sprining forward.

    3. Whirling the shoulders by means of the powerful back muscle, assisted by shifting weight from one leg to the other.

    4. Surging upwards, as in delivering uppercuts.


    Every punch combines at least two of those motion-methods.

    Best of all the punches is the "stepping straight jolt" delivered with either fist from the "falling step." It has fall, spring, and whirl. That stepping jolt must not be confused with the "ordinary straight punch" that is delivered at medium range without moving the feet, and depends almost entirely on the shoulder whirl. The stepping jolt is a much more explosive blow.

    "Hooks and uppercut are short-range blows that can be just as explosive as stepping jolts. However, the hooks and uppercuts are less desireable for fist-fighting, in which one tries to keep at long range as much as possible in order to avoid clinching and wrestling.

    "How does a fighter set his weight in motion by a fall? The falling procedure is simple. Remember the baby and the truck driver? (note Dempsey is refering to a diagram of a baby free falling about to land directly on top of a standing man. The baby fell straight down from the fourth floor window. It was yanked straight toward the earth by gravity. It encountered nothing to change the direction of its moving body-weight until it struck the truckman's head. However, the direction of a falling object can be changed. Let's take an example of a boy sitting on a sled and sliding down a snowny hill (note: this is also illustrated in the book). In a sense the boy and his sled are falinng objects, like the baby. But the slope of the hill prevents them from falling straight down.

    "Their fall is deflected to the angle of the hill. The direction of their "weight-in-motion" is on a slant. And when they reach the level plain at the bottom of the hill, they will continue to slide for a while. Howeve, the direction of their slide on the plain - the direction of their "weight-in-motion" - will be "STRAIGHT OUT", at a right angle to the straight-down pull of gravity.

    "Those examples of the falling baby and the sledding boy illustrate two basic principles of the stepping jolt:

    (1) Gravity can give motion to weight by causing a fall.

    (2) The direction of that "weight-in-motion" can be deflected away from the perpendicular - on a slant, or straight forward.

    "But, you ask, 'what's the connection between all that falling stuff and the straight jolt?"

    "I'll answer that question by letting you take your first step as a puncher, and I do mean s-t-e-p.

    End of chapter 7.

    Chapter 8: THE FALLING STEP
    "Stand in the middle of the floor. Point your left foot at any distant object in the room. Place your right foot to the rear and slightly to the right of your left foot (the book provides illustrations, this description is illustrated in figure 3). For the cahp about 5'10", the heel of his right foot should be about 18" back (and slightly to the right) of the heel of his left foot."

    "let your arms dangle loosely at your sides; you won't need to use them in the step."

    "Bend your knees slightly. Ben your body forward slightly as you shift your "weight forward on to your left foot", so that your "right foot" is resting only on the ball of the foot. Remember that the knees are still slightly bent. Teeter up and down easily (half bouncing without leaving the floor) to make certain you're in a comfortable, ballanced position. If your position doesn't feel balanced and comfortable, move your right foot about slightly - but not much - to get a better balance as you teeter. You are resting only lightly on the balls of your "right foot", remember. Stop teetering, but keep the knees slightly bent and your arms at your side.

    "NOW - WITHOUT ANY PREMLIMINARY MOVEMENTS - take a long, quick step forward with your "left" foot, toward the object at which your left toe had been pointing (this is illustrated in figure 4). I emphasive: "no preliminary movement befor the step. You unquestionably will be tempted to shift some of the weight from the "left" foot to the "right" foot, which is resting lightly on its ball. NO PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT! Just lift the "left" foot and LET THE BODY FALL FORWARD IN A LONG, QUICK STEP."

    "The "left" foot should land flat and solid on the floor at the end of the step."

    "It is a quick, convulsive and extremely awkward step. Yet, it's one of the most important steps of your fistic life; for that falling step lurch is the rough diamond out of which will be ground the beautiful, straight knockout jolt. It's the gem-movement of straight punching. Try that falling-step many times. Make certain, each time, that you start from a comfortably ballanced position, that the body-weight is resting largely on the "left" leg, that the knees are slightly bent, that the arms are at your side, and that you make no preliminary movement with your "right" foot."

    "I call that forward lurch a "falling step." Actually, every step in walking involves a small "fall." Walking is a series of "falls." But in this particular step, the fall is exaggerated for two reasons:

    (1) your weight is well forward when you step off.

    (2) the step is so long that it gives gravity a chance to impart unusual momentum to your body-weight.

    The solidity with which your "left" foot landed upon the floor was caused by your momentum. The late Joe Gans rarely missed with a long, straight punch; but, when he did you could hear for half a block the smack of his left sole on the canvas."

    "Although the weight of your body was resting largely upon your "left" foot when you stepped off, you didin't fall to the floor. Why? Because the alert ball of your "right" foot came to the rescue frantically and gave your body a forward "spring" in a desperate attempt to keep your body balanced upright - to maintain its equilibrium. Your rescuing "right" foot acted not only as did the slope of the hill for the sledding boy, but also as a "springboard" in the side of the hill might have functioned had the sledding boy whizzed onto a springboard on the side of the hill. The "left" foot serves as a "trigger" to the spring the "right" foot. So, the falling step sometimes is called the "Trigger step"

    "I warned: DON'T MAKE A PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT before stepping off. Had you followed yur natural inclination and shifted your weight to the right foot before stepping, that action would have started your body-weight "moving backward" - "away" from the direction in which you intend to step. Then you would have had to lose a split-second while your "right" was stopping the back motion and shifting your weight forward again before the punching step could be taken"


    "Learn now and remember always in fighting you cannot afford to give your body the luxury of a useless preliminary or prepartory movment before shooting a punch. In the first place, your target may be open for only a split-second, and you must take advantage of that opening like a bolt of lightning. Secondly, preliminary movements are "give-aways" - "tell-tales" -"telegraphs" - that treacherously betray to your opponent your next action. Joe Louis was knocked out in his first fight with Max Schmeling principally because of the tell-tale movements of Joe's left jab. Schmeling timed Joe's telegraphs and smashed him again and agin with straight rights to the head. Herr Maxie smashed him every time that careless left hand beckoned."

    "You now know how to set your weight into motion for a straight jolt - by means of the FALLING STEP. Next we must consider the second part of the jolt: CONVEYING THE MOVING BODY-WEIGHT AND EXPLODING IT AGAINST THE OPPONENT."

    "However, before studying the "movements" in conveyance and explosion, it will be neccesary for you to understand clearly the LINE OF POWER that all successful conveyance and explosion must follow."

    End of chapter 8.
    The Dempsey pics:

    Last edited by lklawson; 1/14/2009 10:03pm at .
  5. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2009 10:02pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Associated pics of pistol grip punching from historic pugilism:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/2271682...7612582977776/
    Last edited by lklawson; 1/14/2009 10:04pm at .
  6. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2009 10:32pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BTW, I have some pics of "stances" from classic manuals (Edwards, "Art and Practice," Swift, James, etc.

    They're all upright with the head "exposed." Didn't cause them any trouble. My week/weekend is about to get really busy (inlaws are visiting) so I don't know if I'll get time to post them, but trust me on this, it wasn't as dangerous as you might think. The range was different. Hooks weren't used as much (in fact, they're not even discussed in the pre-MoQ manuals) because once you got close enough to hook, you went to grappling. Throwing him on the ground hard-packed dirt and falling on top of him is WAY better than a hook. :)

    I recall the Sanchez/Koscheck fight (UFC 69) where the commentators were carping about him not tucking his chin and keeping a too long lead. Kept claiming that he was "begging to be knocked out." He won that match and never took a serious punch to the head. It looked like nothing so much as a Mendoza style stance or maybe what was illustrated in Swift's manual as the "old style"

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  7. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/14/2009 11:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Get this DdlR, being a historian doesn't make you infallible. At the very least, he doesn't seem like much of a boxer, judging from his take on the "modern boxing stance".

    As far as the videos you posted go, the only difference I see between the old school boxers and modern boxers is that they're sluggers and appear to be trying to take out their opponents with every shot. The stance itself isn't noticeably different from how many boxers today stand, except they tend to hold their arms more loosely than you tend to see modern boxers these days.

    What seems entirely reasonable to me is the possibility that through out the years boxing has in fact become more and more refined technically. It makes sense that there would be a technical evolution in an extremely competitive sport. In this sort of environment each new competitor brings something new, and new refinements get added to the technical strategies of the sport. Since boxing has survived a continuous lineage since the old days of bareknuckle boxing, it makes sense that the techniques would get refined over time. The same certainly seems to be the case with BJJ, with more and more skilled athletes competing all the time, so why not boxing?

    I still see absolutely no advantage to boxers assuming this stance



    and have a hard time believing they actually boxed while maintaining the stance to any degree (If they did in fact use it at all).

    For the people on this thread that can't recall ever watching an actual professional boxing match, this is how most pro boxers tend to stand:



    Which is vastly different than the supposed modern boxer stance demonstrated by the author of the article. Of course there are lots of different boxers with lots of different styles (compare Tyson vs Winky Wright vs James Tony) so it's a little silly to compare "the old stance" to "the modern stance".
  8. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 12:09am

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     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maofas
    The hunched stance is helped by having big gloves to hide behind.
    Your hands will protect your head without gloves just fine. When I catch punches with my gloves it's not with the puffy part. It's caught or deflected with the palm of the hand. Whether you're wearing gloves or not doesn't really matter. Especially given the number of boxers that don't even keep their hands very high at all, paticularly the left hand which often hovers around the chest.

    The "boxing defense is dependent on big gloves" myth needs to die. It's total bullshit.
  9. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 12:13am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boxing Stances Through History, - No BS Martial Arts

    Once upon a time.... 11 pages of a different world
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 1/15/2009 12:18am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  10. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 12:17am

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     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    Your hands will protect your head without gloves just fine. When I catch punches with my gloves it's not with the puffy part. It's caught or deflected with the palm of the hand. Whether you're wearing gloves or not doesn't really matter. Especially given the number of boxers that don't even keep their hands very high at all, paticularly the left hand which often hovers around the chest.

    The "boxing defense is dependent on big gloves" myth needs to die. It's total bullshit.
    I didn't say "boxing defense is dependent on big gloves". I said having a hunched over stance benefits from having those big gloves; there's a pretty significant degree of difference.

    Also, boxers don't catch and deflect every punch; they DO wind up covering up from a lot of them over the course of a bout.
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