228317 Bullies, 4270 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 251 to 260 of 285
Page 26 of 29 FirstFirst ... 162223242526 272829 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 2:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    If you read my posts on this thread before it dissolved into nuclear waste, you'll see I proposed this earlier. I understand the difference that is produced by bareknuckle, dozens-of-rounds fights. I just didn't see my theory gain any traction. I am very honestly on the fence with these questions.

    Why doesn't a jab or three completely destroy the low hands? What are they doing down there that is so damn productive--is it producing range? Because I don't think I buy that. When I produce range with mah kurrotty, my elbows are 125 degrees and hands at shoulder height.
    I'll refer you again to my essay, specifically the sections on the relationship between stance and fighting range. For much of a typical round, LPR boxers stood out of range by what amounted to mutual agreement, because neither of them wanted to risk any more than they had to. At the long range the hands were held at a little above waist height to save fatigue to the arms, while still being able to rise up into a defensive guard if the opponent lunged in with a left lead-off (a lunging punch with the lead fist).

    As they got closer together they would assume the stance we're discussing now, with the slight backward lean and the hands raising up to chest height; closer range = greater risk = more protection required. After a typically quick and short exchange of punches and defenses at this range, the usual pattern was to break and return to long range or close to a clinch and grapple for the throw. Repeat and repeat and repeat until someone is KOed or gives up.

    Where I do see this stance in modern full-contact is Shotokan explosive point sparring, which is effectively (or actually) bareknuckle, but completely opposite the match length.
    Yes, there definitely are similarities. As you noted, the match length and difference between point-sparring and knock-down/out sparring are significant variables between the two styles. It's also worth comparing LPR boxing to other similar (but not identical) styles that are still practiced.

    Senegalese Laamb, for example, is fought full-contact and bare-knuckle and has no point system. Note the rhythm of the fights, the distances maintained, etc. Note also that Laamb matches end when one fighter is either thrown or punched down onto their back (unlike LPR rules, in which clean falls simply ended a given round).

    Laamb fighters are also allowed to grab the legs and use lower-body takedowns, which is (as in MMA) one reason why the more erect, backward leaning LPR stance wouldn't work for them; they would be too vulnerable to single or double-leg takedowns.

    YouTube - lamb lutte au senegal boy seye VS zoss
  2. Hesperus is offline
    Hesperus's Avatar

    it's all vanity

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Great Plains
    Posts
    3,045

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 5:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe AnnaT should go brag about her record to those guys, see what they make of her absolute martial superiority.
  3. Torakaka is offline
    Torakaka's Avatar

    Do you eat breakfast?

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Kaka village
    Posts
    10,658

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 5:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I must say, those guys do look pretty bad at striking. They should consider joining a boxing gym. If they had even a little counter punching ability that fight could've gone a lot differently. Hell, if they knew how to throw something other than sloppy arm punches that fight could've gone differently.
    Last edited by Torakaka; 1/23/2009 6:00pm at .
  4. JohnnyCache is offline
    JohnnyCache's Avatar

    All Out of Bubblegum

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    10,472

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 8:07pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus
    Maybe AnnaT should go brag about her record to those guys, see what they make of her absolute martial superiority.
    Anna has an MMA record, that's pretty close to those rules... Are you just saying she should go fight someone bigger and stronger then her and that would make you right somehow? What's the purpose of this comment?

    Notice those guys aren't in an LPR stance. Because nobody fights in anything remotely resembling that stance.

    I really don't buy that holding your arms out at the LPR angle saves any fatigue. It doesn't seem any more restful to me then an orthodox stance - in fact, rotating the fingers upward makes it more tiring.

    The idea that you're going to expose the body, destroy your actual chances of doding and slipping by standing erect, and make any headshot that does land more effective to avoid a few shots to the forehead just doesn't seem correct.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  5. Anna Kovacs is offline
    Anna Kovacs's Avatar

    Spear Sister

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    6,421

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 9:06pm

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus
    Maybe AnnaT should go brag about her record to those guys, see what they make...

    Choking noises. Because that's what I do to people bigger then me even if they technically suck.

    I mean really, are you just trying to prove what a super-douche you are by going "AnnaT should fight someone 50lbs heavier LOL"?
  6. 1point2 is online now
    1point2's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,128

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 9:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Johnny, I did see some low hands at the outer ranges in that clip. Leaning back as they entered medium range too. I think that's what he's talking about re: transitional stance.

    1:40 to 2:05 is where I see it the most. The blue trunks (loser) does a wrestling/MMA crouch with high hands and is winning the striking and takedown game, whereas the yellow trunks (winner by lucky punch IMO) is doing LPR-esque stance, IMO unsuccessfully.

    This video makes it look like the stance is a natural tendency, but unsuccessful.
  7. SBG-ape is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    499

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 9:50pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's quite reasonable to lower your hands a bit & rest when you know you're out of range. I also think that if someone were really worried about damage from strikes they would/should try to fight either from extreme range or the clinch rather then relying on close stand-up. But, if someone's scared of being hit in the head it's both natural & sensible to raise the hands for protection ala crazy monkey/peek-a-boo.

    If the argument was that hands were low to protect the body because bare knuckles dig menacingly into soft tissue in a way that gloves don't; I'd find that somewhat more reasonable. Lowering the hands to protect the head just seems strange.

    I also agree with critics of the LPR stance who've said that the extended arms telegraph your range to an opponent.

    Also, it occurs to me that a low lead hand would be of more value if the LPR had allowed grabbing the legs, as the lead hand can be used to help block a shot.

    DdlR's explanation of the medical realities of the period was compelling but paints the picture that this style was optimized not for winning fights but for making careers longer & less disfiguring. If blows were so dangerous, why didn't they just wrestle?
    Last edited by SBG-ape; 1/23/2009 9:53pm at .
  8. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 10:56pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape
    If blows were so dangerous, why didn't they just wrestle?
    Less money in wrestling. In boxing, you took purse, split stakes, could take shares of gambling, and might have a Patron from the Fancy.

    Wrestling didn't become near as capable of providing a living until later, turn of the century or so, IMS.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  9. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    1/24/2009 12:53am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    Hey Johnny, I did see some low hands at the outer ranges in that clip. Leaning back as they entered medium range too. I think that's what he's talking about re: transitional stance.

    1:40 to 2:05 is where I see it the most. The blue trunks (loser) does a wrestling/MMA crouch with high hands and is winning the striking and takedown game, whereas the yellow trunks (winner by lucky punch IMO) is doing LPR-esque stance, IMO unsuccessfully.

    This video makes it look like the stance is a natural tendency, but unsuccessful.
    Note that I posted the Laamb clip as an example of the way a fighting stance can be defined by the rules of the game, and especially of the way bareknuckle punching influences the rhythm and use of range in a combat sport that isn't decided by single points.

    The Laamb guard stance does have to deal with bareknuckle punches, but that's where the similarity between it and the LPR stance ends; Laamb fighters also have to be able to counter leg pickup throws, so their stance is much wider and lower than the typical LPR stance. That width and depth mitigates against the characteristic backward lean of the LPR guard stance, which did not have to deal with leg pickup throws.
  10. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    1/24/2009 1:19am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape
    I think it's quite reasonable to lower your hands a bit & rest when you know you're out of range. I also think that if someone were really worried about damage from strikes they would/should try to fight either from extreme range or the clinch rather then relying on close stand-up. But, if someone's scared of being hit in the head it's both natural & sensible to raise the hands for protection ala crazy monkey/peek-a-boo.
    I agree with almost all of this; note that a peek-a-boo/CM type of guard was used by some LPR-era boxers, especially during the transition from the punching range into the clinch. There was a risk that the opponent's bareknuckle punches would damage the defender's hands.

    Note also that LPR punches were characteristically straight, especially at the medium-distance punching range; hooks and uppercuts were used sparingly at the infighting range, which, again, didn't tend to last very long.

    If the argument was that hands were low to protect the body because bare knuckles dig menacingly into soft tissue in a way that gloves don't; I'd find that somewhat more reasonable. Lowering the hands to protect the head just seems strange.
    The hands were not lowered to protect the head. The head was protected by distance as the first line of defense; secondarily by the extended guard (which, as I mentioned much earlier, rose into a wedge formation once the fighters got close enough to threaten each other); by throwing straight line punches that deflected the opponent's oncoming punches; and finally by ducking, weaving and blocking as required during the brief exchanges of punches that characterized the most dangerous range/phase of a given round.

    I also agree with critics of the LPR stance who've said that the extended arms telegraph your range to an opponent.
    This was mitigated by the standard tactic of "milling" the arms, which meant to revolve the fists and forearms in alternating circular patterns. It's actually a very effective way to disguise the range and intention to launch an attack. As I said in the essay, these guys were not frozen rigidly into position.

    DdlR's explanation of the medical realities of the period was compelling but paints the picture that this style was optimized not for winning fights but for making careers longer & less disfiguring. If blows were so dangerous, why didn't they just wrestle?
    What Kirk said. Boxing was a dangerous and bloody business - the direct heir of the gladiatorial weapon combats organized by James Figg (also often referred to as the "father of boxing") in the early 1700s - and the spectacle of the knock-out attracted a big-money, high-stakes gambling subculture that offered enough incentive for people to risk their health and safety as professional prize fighters. Wrestling didn't become a big money sport until the late 1800s.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.