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  1. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:25pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think we would have used the same stances for those fights. If the outcomes were painful, they would be modified over time. People who already have a practiced stance are likely slow to modify it. Have you practiced the older stance under pressure yet?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
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    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:27pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    No, actually. The 'Bullies' are asserting that the LPR stance was not proper under LPR rules, in as much as stances adopted by modern fighters would work better.
    And as I have pointed out, that means that they are arguing against the generations of world champion boxers who actually fought under these rules. That's why I keep trying to explain what the rules were. The alternative is to assume that these champions were naive, and history suggests otherwise.
  3. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:28pm

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     Style: Kano-Gracie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    Pointy has one point, I have another. I don't see how LPR rules differ from MMA or MT in such a way that produces this stance/guard, instead of a more modern one.
    This is the most well-covered of the repeated questions, so I'll blurt something out instead of just facepalming and going on about my way.

    Simple: Bare knuckle punches to the face + a desire to continue to have a successful career - hands anywhere below the waist - any strike except those with the fists =
    Spoiler:
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:30pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    Pointy has one point, I have another. I don't see how LPR rules differ from MMA or MT in such a way that produces this stance/guard, instead of a more modern one.
    I invited you to quote those passages from the article that led you to your conclusions; if you do that I might be able to address those points directly.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:41pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBadGuy
    They are asserting that, if they went back in time, the "modern" stance of today would do better than the LPR stance back in those days.
    I doubt it, but since that's a science fiction scenario anyway, it's more practical to go the other way. PeopleSoft and his guys in Boston have already started to experiment along those lines; Ken Pfrenger and the small group of modern clubs that I referred to earlier have been performing such experimental pressure-testing for a number of years now. PeopleSoft and I contributed to a long thread on this forum a few months ago, likewise attempting to revive LPR-inspired rules as an option for Throwdowns, within the obvious safety restrictions which inevitably alter the stances.

    We've offered any number of resources that should allow anyone sufficiently curious to test this stuff for themselves, and I hope they do. If someone wants to go to that effort specifically to test how a modern boxer/MMAist does under LPR rules, then as I mentioned earlier, I think that would be a very interesting project.
  6. MrBadGuy is offline
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    King of the Impossible

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:45pm

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     Style: Grapplomancer

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was all for it in that original thread if you recall. Once I get non-crappy again at boxing, I fully plan to engadge in gentlemanly violence.

    However, I don't know if I'll be able to break from my peekaboo.
  7. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:46pm

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     Style: Kano-Gracie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The slippery slope about all of the revival/recreation of LPR is the repeated bare knuckle punches to the face. No one's willing to do this anymore, and thus something is going to be lost in the translation to gloves of whatever sort. Something big, methinks.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:48pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleSoft
    I think we would have used the same stances for those fights. If the outcomes were painful, they would be modified over time. People who already have a practiced stance are likely slow to modify it.
    I agree. Given time and continued experience under the conditions I suggested, how do you think they would end up standing, and how much time would they spend at the distances I listed earlier?

    Have you practiced the older stance under pressure yet?
    Yes, within safety restrictions. We wore small gloves (kendo kote to start with, MMA gloves when they became available) and face protectors, otherwise sticking as closely as possible to the LPR rules and the punching, defensive and throwing techniques described in the old boxing manuals. The main differences were more tactical than technical, largely because these bouts were recreational experiments rather than professional prize-fights.
  9. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 1:54pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus
    This is the most well-covered of the repeated questions, so I'll blurt something out instead of just facepalming and going on about my way.

    Simple: Bare knuckle punches to the face + a desire to continue to have a successful career - hands anywhere below the waist - any strike except those with the fists =
    Spoiler:
    If you read my posts on this thread before it dissolved into nuclear waste, you'll see I proposed this earlier. I understand the difference that is produced by bareknuckle, dozens-of-rounds fights. I just didn't see my theory gain any traction. I am very honestly on the fence with these questions.

    Why doesn't a jab or three completely destroy the low hands? What are they doing down there that is so damn productive--is it producing range? Because I don't think I buy that. When I produce range with mah kurrotty, my elbows are 125 degrees and hands at shoulder height.

    Where I do see this stance in modern full-contact is Shotokan explosive point sparring, which is effectively (or actually) bareknuckle, but completely opposite the match length.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2009 2:05pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus
    The slippery slope about all of the revival/recreation of LPR is the repeated bare knuckle punches to the face. No one's willing to do this anymore, and thus something is going to be lost in the translation to gloves of whatever sort. Something big, methinks.
    That, plus the concept of fighting to the point of unconsciousness or surrender without time or round limits.

    It takes real discipline to stick to the original style when you're wearing protection, precisely because the protection means that you don't have to be as wary as the old-timers did.

    Likewise, since the LPR circuit has been dead and buried for well over a century, there's no money as an incentive for revival; the motivation has to be purely academic, as in "I really want to figure out how this stuff used to work." How much physical risk that curiosity is worth is up to individuals; personally, when I was actively interested in these answers, it wasn't to the degree that I was prepared to bareknuckle punch a sparring partner into bloody unconsciousness, nor risk that happening to me.

    So, as with any similar martial reconstruction (for example, longsword sparring with body protection and weapon simulators that were not available during the Renaissance) you figure out the safety compromises that are least likely to have a negative impact on your study and proceed from there. You pressure-test the old material as honestly and intensely as you can within your self-imposed restrictions and cross-reference your results with those of recorded history, towards a better understanding of that history. That's the whole premise.
    Last edited by DdlR; 1/23/2009 2:07pm at .

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