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  1. jspeedy is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 12:53am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote: Annatrocity
    "my training was based on the martial arts of medieval and renaissance europe where the weapon of choice was the roundel dagger which in many cases doesn't even have an edge"

    Interesting I never even knew their were still people doing european knife/dagger style fighting other than fencing & stuff. I'll have to look it up.









    :viking: :XXknight:
  2. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 1:51am

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy
    Maybe this shock knife could hurt some one, but kill them? Is your argument a high probability THeRuss, or just a worse case scenario?
    It's a bad-case scenario. Worst-case scenario is that it nearly kills someone else, maims you, and then they sue the **** out of you. Maybe toss in some prison rape there for good measure.

    There are other bad-case scenarios that are less dramatic - it malfunctions and stops working, a piece of it breaks off and hits someone in the eye, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy
    Again to quote TheRUSS: They take off the rubber shirt, and against some pretty impressive odds, their skin is bone-dry. You take another swipe at them with the shock knife. A thousand volts, a million ohms, they get a milliamp or so across the affected region. They'll notice that.

    OK the 1000v comes from the ho-made shock-knife I get that. And the human body has 300-1000 ohms I get that. The resistance of wet skin as you have it is 1000-10,000ohms so where does the rest of the million ohms come from?
    Most likely from flakes of dead skin, oils secreted by skin, and probably the area of contact. I didn't make the numbers up.

    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy
    "The current a stun gun can deliver will therefore be limited by its internal resistance. In practice, it'll also be limited by the amount of power that it has available... but now we're getting into capacitance, which is beyond our scope."

    IF this is the case why are we talking about the external resistance of the human body? Why is this is beyone our scope ?
    External resistance of the human body is important because a shock knife isn't actually supposed to get through the skin. Internal resistance of the human body is important because sometimes things don't go the way they're supposed to.

    Internal resistance of a voltage source is important to understand in the abstract here, but we don't need to enumerate all of the potential causes to understand its effects (voltage sag).

    Anyways, my advice is that you stick with the alternatives until you have both the money to spend on a retail shock knife and reason to believe that it's worth the money. Take it for what you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  3. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 2:50am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    I think the wounds are more ugly then fatal. If getting my arm slashed up with some real ugly cuts means I get to jam my knife into your neck a half dozen times and guaranteed end the altercation in short order I think it's a reasonable trade.

    I'd also have to see the demo's. I've seen little knives make real ugly cuts in meat but this i s generally an expert making a committed cut on a target with little if any motion that isn't trying to kill him. They certainly demonstrate the capability to make nasty wounds but I don't think they reflect the norm of a knife wound.
    I'm mostly speaking of Cold Steel's demos which are done on static meat targets (and similar demos with Paul Vunak and the Dog Brothers using Spydercos). Even with clothing like denim on top they can sink inches deep. Not entirely like a person, but there's some validity to them. They're enough to make me think "reasonable trade" isn't the best way to view knife fighting.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    I almost always kept my weapon arm back with the general strategy of effectively negating the opponents weapon arm. It's been a long time since I played with knife simulators but I was pretty effective at this.

    I guess I'll also point out that my training was based on the martial arts of medieval and renaissance europe where the weapon of choice was the roundel dagger which in many cases doesn't even have an edge. Broad bladed cutting knives did exist but it seems that the roundel was the preferred fighting knife. This could possibly be attributed to the clothing of the time. I don't really know. I just know that I like to stab people and was pretty good at doing it with little more then incidental edge contact once upon a time.

    I also know that this topic makes me want to go play knife warriors with the kali instructor at my gym.
    I would argue that the forward grip has similarly lethal possibilities in addition to snippy snippy gotcha tactics. ie the rising stab upward to the guts and under the ribcage, or hooking through the ribs to get the heart and lungs. Another minor advantage of the forward grip pointed at the opponent's face is that it obscures the length of your weapon (I'm sure you've encountered this argument in your studies of the sword). Both the forward and reverse grips also have some really brutal possibilities using the edge in or double edge. I think both grips have their uses, but sparring with trainers and fencing masks (ie playing knife warrior) has given me a bias towards the forward grip.

    Possibly of interest to you- Cold Steel started making a new rondel dagger trainer and a hand and a half waster out of their weird black plastic stuff to be released in 2009. Its the material that they make their bokkens out of, and its pretty good stuff.
    http://www.coldsteel.com/bokkens.html
  4. sochin101 is offline
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    Graviora Manent

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 3:05am

    Join us... or die
     Style: No gym currently.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss

    Ohm's Law
    Russ, I'm sensing you have some resistance to this home made shock knife idea...





    Oh. Oh. Oh.
    I know you saw what I did there.
    Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.

    Gandhi

  5. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 9:36pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    quote: TheRuss:
    "Anyways, my advice is that you stick with the alternatives until you have both the money to spend on a retail shock knife and reason to believe that it's worth the money. Take it for what you will."


    I'll buy that for a dollar! Thanks fer the input. I don't plan on buliding my own shockknife. Someday when I can waste money on stupid things I don't really need maybe i'll get one. .........Well that or some of those perfect pushup gizmos(sarcasm alert!).
  6. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Spear Sister

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2009 10:14pm

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra
    I'm mostly speaking of Cold Steel's demos which are done on static meat targets (and similar demos with Paul Vunak and the Dog Brothers using Spydercos).
    OK yeh, I've seen the Vunak demos and I have Cold Steel's dvd as well.

    They're enough to make me think "reasonable trade" isn't the best way to view knife fighting.
    My mentality is basically just that the longer the fight goes on the more likely I feel that both parties are to sustain fatal wounds. Getting sliced up on the forearm just seems so very minor in comparison to what could happen but I guess it all boils down to who you're up against.

    I would argue that the forward grip has similarly lethal possibilities in addition to snippy snippy gotcha tactics. ie the rising stab upward to the guts and under the ribcage, or hooking through the ribs to get the heart and lungs.
    I like the forward grip to. I'll switch it up but I generally feel more comfortable with the point back.


    Possibly of interest to you- Cold Steel started making a new rondel dagger trainer

    Took a look, that's not actually a roundel. That's one of the broad bladed cutting daggers that also existed. A roundel looks like this:



    Note the triangular cross-section. This paticular one doesn't even have an edge at all , though some variants do. I honestly couldn't tell you why. Possibly has something to do with ease of penetration through maille armor but historical illustrations show the roundel being used unarmored as well.

    Interesting knife but not something that you could justify carrying like you could a pocket folder. :)
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2009 2:24am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    My mentality is basically just that the longer the fight goes on the more likely I feel that both parties are to sustain fatal wounds. Getting sliced up on the forearm just seems so very minor in comparison to what could happen but I guess it all boils down to who you're up against.
    If my intention was to end things as quickly as possible, I'd prefer to grab their arm with my left hand and pincushion them with my right in a forward grip. I've read that when the Arkansas toothpick was a popular weapon, a preferred killing tactic was to stab with it in a forward grip and then pump the handle up and down or side to side. This was among frontier types who were familiar with killing with big knives in a hunting context.

    Took a look, that's not actually a roundel. That's one of the broad bladed cutting daggers that also existed. A roundel looks like this:



    Note the triangular cross-section. This paticular one doesn't even have an edge at all , though some variants do. I honestly couldn't tell you why. Possibly has something to do with ease of penetration through maille armor but historical illustrations show the roundel being used unarmored as well.

    Interesting knife but not something that you could justify carrying like you could a pocket folder. :)
    I stand corrected. Looks like a good weapon of choice if you wanted to kill someone. I would suspect that the edge was there to cause more damage as noted above in the Arkansas toothpick example. I've also heard that when spear hunting, the kill is made by stabbing behind the front arm and pumping it to enlarge the wound (or if thrown the weight of the handle dropping to the ground would do the same thing). It wouldn't be the same without an edge.
  8. matiu is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2009 2:32am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    I'm trying to get the same thing

    I'm pretty beginner so want my shock knife to be foam :icon_wink

    So far I have couple of 10 mm dowels stuffed in a 13 mm foam tube. Lasted about 20 minutes as 1m sword before breaking in half.

    Next step is shock-ability. I'm aiming at what the real Shock Knife delivers which is a max of 7500 Volts and < 1 ma.

    So far I found circuit schematics that will give 2000 v at ? amps: http://stungunreviews.tripod.com/ele...gun-tazer.html

    And ? v at ? amps: http://stungunreviews.tripod.com/stu...chematics.html

    The circuit components are a bit vague though .. still looking..
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