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  1. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2008 3:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Charles Poliquin's criticisms of Crossfit

    So I was reading Tnation the other day (once again disappointed that it's not about trannys) when I stumbled on this column by Charles Poliquin, one of the most sucessful strength coaches (according to tnation), where he gives his analysis of Crossfit and why he doesn't recommend it. I was thinking about starting Crossfit, mostly to learning lifting technique, but I was wondering what those in the know thought about Mr. P's criticisms.

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...trength_vol_47

    CrossFit Analyzed
    Q: Coach, in your last column you talked a little about CrossFit, saying that "no athlete has ever gotten any good training like that." Have you had a chance to look a little deeper into the method?

    A: A lot of individuals love CrossFit. Many of them believe it's the perfect program to achieve their goals. They're very satisfied with their progress. And I have no doubt that some individuals have never been injured from CrossFit.

    That said, I have six major issues with CrossFit-type training:
    1. Lack of sufficient testing protocols
    When I looked over detailed notes from a CrossFit certification, I saw protocols for beginning, intermediate, and advanced workouts using multi-joint movements. But I didn't see any protocols for testing trainees for structural-balance issues.
    I've worked with Olympians in 23 different sports, along with lots of professional athletes. Before having any of those athletes do their first power clean or squat, I do a series of tests to red-flag muscle imbalances that could increase the risk of injury.
    And if there's a history of injuries with that athlete, then of course that's addressed in the workout design.
    I'll give you an example: Olympic shot-putter Adam Nelson couldn't do power snatches before I started working with him because he had adhesions in his rotator cuff muscles. After we addressed the injury with Active Release Techniques (ART), Nelson was able to reintroduce the exercise in his workouts. Within a month he was handling personal-best weights.
    Jim McKenzie, a professional hockey player I've trained, went from a 281-pound close-grip bench press to 380 pounds in less than four months by focusing on corrective exercises — and that's without doing any bench presses at all for the first three months!

    2. Focus on a single training protocol
    The protocols in CrossFit aren't appropriate for developing the highest levels of strength or power or speed. I doubt if you'll see any elite powerlifters, weightlifters, or sprinters using CrossFit protocols as their primary method of conditioning.
    For example, when I trained [long jumper] Dwight Phillips for the Athens Games, we worked first on structural balance, and then on increasing his eccentric strength.
    Besides winning gold medals at the World Championships in Helsinki in 2005 and the Olympic Games in 2004, in training he beat some top-ranked sprinters in the 100 meters. I didn't accomplish this by having him superset high-rep push-ups with mile runs.
    Coaches often overemphasize energy-system training with athletes, to the detriment of other physical qualities. Check out any exercise physiology textbook and look at the studies performed on elite athletes and their VO2 maxes. It's not necessary for a baseball player — or a basketball player for that matter — to have a VO2 max of 70. [A VO2 max in the high 50s is considered outstanding for a male in his late 20s.]
    The promotional materials I've read about CrossFit imply that this type of training addresses all the strength and conditioning needs of an athlete, but the concept of specificity tells us that if you try to excel at everything, you aren't likely to reach the highest levels at anything.
    This is why we don't see individuals who can run a mile in four minutes flat that can also bench press 500 pounds.

    3. Insufficient instruction for teaching complex training methods
    It takes more than a single weekend seminar to develop the competency to teach certain types of exercises, or to prescribe protocols for complex training methods. I'd include Olympic lifts, strongman exercises, and plyometrics in this category.
    These training methods are sometimes criticized as dangerous by strength coaches. But when you look at why athletes become injured, you can often point to poor technique.
    Interestingly enough, my first comments about CrossFit got a lot of business for my PICP coaches. They got calls from CrossFit practitioners who wanted to learn how to lift properly.

    4. Inappropriate repetition brackets for complex exercises
    Although high reps and short rest intervals can be used to develop muscular endurance, these protocols shouldn't be used with some exercises.
    This is especially true with Olympic lifts, where it's difficult to maintain proper technique with high reps. And it's especially difficult when supersetting Olympic lifts with deadlifts, or any other multijoint exercise. If you want confirmation, just watch CrossFit trainees do these lifts in videos on their website.
    The Olympic lifts should be used to develop power. If you want to develop muscular endurance, you should use simpler movements.

    5. Inappropriate exercise order
    In the CrossFit "Linda" workout, what's the logic in fatiguing the lower back with deadlifts before doing power cleans? Not only does it prevent you from doing the power cleans with optimal technique, it makes it more difficult to activate high-threshold motor units. That's why you should do all your sets of power cleans before you do deadlifts.
    Another problem is that combining weight-training exercises with sprints places an athlete at a high risk of injury, especially to the hamstrings.

    6. Endorsement of controversial exercises
    On one website of a CrossFit affiliate, I saw video clips of athletes jumping onto cars and standing on Swiss balls. I appreciate the need to use a wide variety of exercises with clients, but not if they're high-risk exercises.
    Because of these six concerns, I can't recommend CrossFit training, especially for those seeking the highest levels of athletic performance.
    But in the interest of being open-minded, let's leave it at this: Despite its shortcomings, the CrossFit system is continually evolving. It'll be interesting to see how it changes as more athletes, along with nonathletes, participate in the program.
    So is Crossfit bullshido or is Poliquin a Happah-esque psuedo scientist?**

    **Note: There is no middle ground.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2008 3:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Training crossfit to learn lifting technique is like seeking out Bob Sapp to learn how to box.

    I'm really not a fan of crossfit for anyone with a specific goal, and I'm also not a fan of people training without a specific goal.

    Also, Poliquin is the man, but check out Chad Waturbury's review of Crossfit as well.
    Last edited by Emevas; 12/20/2008 3:29pm at .
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    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2008 4:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    #1 is valid, although it's not really an indictment of Crossfit in particular - I don't think I've ever done a program that does include testing for structural-balance issues.

    #2 simply does not apply to training for mixed martial arts. There are too many attributes involved. (I'm also curious as to what Poliquin thinks of world-class decatheletes and freaks of nature like Dwight Freeney)

    #3 is correct, and probably the most important criticism. See this post for my stolen philosophy on the Olympic lifts.

    #4 and #5 are where the real debate lies, because they're questions of philosophy rather than of resources. A lot of what I've seen of the CrossFit philosophy seems to fall into the Gym Jones mold - developing mental attributes ("toughness", focus, etc.) rather than physical ones. Which is great and all, so long as you don't stagnate or get hurt doing it.

    #6 is overreaching - difficult exercises may not be appropriate for everyone, but I personally know several athletes who have successfully included standing on Swiss balls (and beyond) in their training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  4. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2008 5:21pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok thanks guys. I was interested in learning technique from my local Crossfit because they were offering classes on Olympic lifting.
  5. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2008 5:36pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See if you can get lessons on technique without necessarily following the program. Although every crossfit gym varies.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  6. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2008 6:27pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So crossfit is like the karv maga of gym?
  7. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2008 1:57pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would also notice that he's speaking a lot about athletes that focus highly on a small set of movements.....does he do any conditioning for combat sports athletes, and if so, would it have a lower degree of specificity than say, training a sprinter or shot-putter?
  8. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2008 2:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It would have a lower degree of specificity, yes, but not to the point of having no specificity.

    The demands of an MMA athlete have a bit more variety, but at the same time it falls into the specific realm of "MMA training", in that training certain attributes is still not entirely necessary.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  9. SunTzu is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 7:14am

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     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think his point with #2 is that engaging in primarily energy-system training isn't going to build specific physical attributes very well in already conditioned athletes, and that engaging in it nearly exclusively will result in decreased peak capabilities of those attributes.
    I don't see why MMA athletes can't benefit from DE or ME type of training, especially between training camps.
  10. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 9:52am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kevin Kearns, the strength and conditioning coach for K-flo, Cote, Bonner and the guys from sityodtong spoke alot about structural testing and improving posture before doing anything. I am not sure about crossfit, but if they are having people just jump into heavy lifts without any pre-screening, that seems liek a recipie for disaster....

    So crossfit is like the karv maga of gym?
    That's funny because my old Krav school teamed up with the local crossfit org (I think to share space, but funny nonetheless)
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
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