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  1. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2009 2:23pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp
    I have a question before I comment, was he using a Glock?

    added: Seems they allow tasers to be carried on the strong side, even though taser says you should wear it weak side, cross draw.

    There have been other shootings where the person pulled the gun rather than the taser.

    I found it odd that the bullet went through, bounced off the ground, then came back in and killed him. A good hollowpoint won't do that. Hardball will.

    I feel for everyone here...
    From what I've been able to figure out, unless he had a personal weapon, he was shooting a sig p22x, probably a p229 or p226, in .40. That's got an integral firing pin safety - like a glock without even the lever on the trigger. Probably shooting hardball as well, since hollowpoint isn't standard issue most places. Re the "two years" comments, there's a certain validity to that, but it's worth noting the department as a whole had only had tasers for three weeks.

    Re the don't tase me comment, it's odd to me that this huge superstition is building around the use of tasers. The blue collar public seems to have decided that a cop using a taser is doing something equivilent to deciding to kill him.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  2. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2009 5:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Likely due to the insane idea that hollowpoints are bad, hardball is nice, by LA types.

    Good hollowpoint would not have done a through and though to the bounce.

    As to why they didn't have it the taser where it belongs (weak side cross draw), SOMEONE said "hey, that way presents it to the bad guy to grab and shoot you".

    Finally, this is a 27 year old, with a wife having a baby who screwed up. It is not an execution.

    However, I will point out that in Japan, at least when I was there, part of your promotions were based on your Judo or Aikido ranking.

    I will speak of their aikido elsewhere.

    But you were expected to spend and hour before or an hour after your shift, in the police dojo, working to be a bad ass. They were and are.
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2009 3:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp

    However, I will point out that in Japan, at least when I was there, part of your promotions were based on your Judo or Aikido ranking.

    I will speak of their aikido elsewhere.

    But you were expected to spend and hour before or an hour after your shift, in the police dojo, working to be a bad ass. They were and are.
    Depends where you are. Having been a somewhat rowdy teenager in Japan I know in Sagami hara not all the cops were bad ass.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2009 3:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well... that was then this is now. Can't speak too much about today.
  5. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2009 6:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp
    Well... that was then this is now. Can't speak too much about today.
    That was then too.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. EmetShamash is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/11/2009 6:25pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for a cop who accidentally shoots someone in the back because he thought it was his tazer. Shooting the tazer would have been bad enough. He just ended a life and people are worried about the jackass cop that did it?

    Tazers have killed people despite what the tazer company would have you believe. This guy was restrained and about to get tazered by some jackass cop that just wanted to torture him as some sort of sick punishment. I know all you LEO nuthuggers think that people of such authority are infallible but give it a rest. Someone's father and husband just died because of this cop's bad judgment.

    Execution style shot in the back. If it was an accident, then he was accidentally executed. This is the language that people use when they get shot in the back while handcuffed. Sorry if that is too critical of the murderer. This is why anarchists are so fed up with authority figures' lack of accountability for their actions. Whiny fucks.
  7. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2009 6:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of course I disagree.

    I suspect he was going for the taser in case it was needed. You see, if the man had complied with the lawful orders, there would have been no need to wrestle with him on the ground, and for another officer to put a knee on his neck. I agree, someone died from bad judgement. It was very bad judgement for him to resist arrest.

    Yes, people have died from Tasers. People who did not comply with the lawful order given them and it is they, not the Officer, who force the issue.

    If you do everything you are told to do, with no resistance, these things don't happen. Sadly we are still working on the Vulcan Neck Pinch, until then, they do the best they can with what they have.
  8. HappyOldGuy is offline
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    Slipping coal into stockings with a little sumptin for mom.

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2009 6:41pm


     Style: Rehab Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you do everything you are told to do, then a pain compliance move can still provoke an involuntary flinch that the guy trying to lever your arm is going to take as resisting. Been there, done that. If the cops get a pass for adrenaline (which they should to a certain degree) then we sure as hell have to understand that the guy getting his shoulder jacked up might not have perfect passivity.

    Emet, you don't have the facts even vaguely close to right.

    This is a tragedy all around. The cop probably needs to be tried for involuntary homicide or whatever the equivalent is, but there is no upside to any of it.
    Last edited by HappyOldGuy; 1/11/2009 6:44pm at .
  9. mike321 is online now

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2009 6:44pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EmetShamash
    I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for a cop who accidentally shoots someone in the back because he thought it was his tazer. Shooting the tazer would have been bad enough. He just ended a life and people are worried about the jackass cop that did it?
    Regarding the accidently in your post: I have sympathy for doctors who accidently lose a patient when they shouldn't have, and pilots that accidently crash, and drivers that accidently hit someone. Anyone trying to make a living and messes up and hurts someone has my sympathy. They still need to take legal, moral, personal, and financial responsibility (that's how our society is supposed to work .) but to have no sympathy is cold. Maybe I am just too sentimental. And of course I feel a lot of symathy to the victims and their families.
  10. EmetShamash is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/11/2009 11:22pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry if I responded a little too emotionally earlier, I did not mean to misrepresent what is known. He was not handcuffed when shot. That makes little difference.

    From http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/200...5/18558793.php
    The video, that Vargas said she shot on a brand new camera she received for Christmas, would seem to support previous witnesses accounts that Grant was laying on his stomach with his hands behind him on the train platform when a single shot was fired by a BART officer.
    From the video that I saw three officers were not having too much trouble controlling these people and that they were not resisting. Excessive force was used even before the shooting from what I saw. Three cops can't even break up a fight without knocking people around? Come on! Resisting! You blame the dead victim for being shot!

    1. This cop either being a total shithead for shooting him on purpose,
    2. The whole of BART is too poorly trained for not being able to control the situation
    3. The thick headed **** was just too stupid to realize that he had a gun in his hand instead of a tazer, that makes it all better yeah?

    There are quite a number of similar examples of people getting shot in the back. Google "shot in the back" and you will find alot of police shooting people.
    From http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_11430825

    Every city knows the story of an Oscar Grant, and the almost automatic anti-climactic ending when the case hits the courts. The officers are found innocent, they go back to work, and the family of the victim is left without a son, father or brother. A community suffers the indignity of knowing a grave injustice has been done without any reprisal.

    Such was the case of Jerrold Hall, a 19-year-old who was killed by Bay Area Rapid Transit police in 2001. Hall was shot in the back of the head.

    But while the basic fact pattern of these two case is similar unarmed young black men with their backs turned, posing no threat to the officer Oscar Grant has something Hall did not: thousands of witnesses worldwide.
    More BART police brilliance here: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/200...3/18558098.php
    BART officials have not released the name of the officer who shot Grant. After the shooting, BART police seized several cell phones from people on the platform who said they had used the phones' cameras to record what happened. For the first two days BART officials told the mainstream media that surveillance cameras at the station do not record, but then corrected themselves Friday night saying the cameras did record but didn't show the incident.
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