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  1. Govithoy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 5:14am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Definitely excellent points on CrossFit.

    Regarding the olympic lifts, I firmly believe the techniques you have to learn for pretty much any other sport are far, far more involved than a squat clean or power snatch. If you can manage throwing a solid 4 punch combination or sink a d'arce, you can learn how to do the o-lifts in relatively short order with an attentive and experienced coach. The time spent learning the lifts is an investment, one that pays a lot of dividends later.

    It took me about 6-7 months but I now have pretty textbook technique on clean and jerk and snatches. Sure there's stuff I need to work on but it's mainly stuff like working on tricep strength or polishing up the 3rd pull, but I did it with no coach, lots of internet and text resources, and a lot of focus in training + a detailed log. I started with weak legs, super weak glutes and hams, inflexibile knees/ankles/hips, and rotator cuff problems in my right shoulder, so I've accumulated a decent amount of experience dealing with such problems.

    Consequently, it's taken me about 4 weeks to fix the various muscular imbalances in my roommate and he's cleaning with good technique now, markedly better than the athletes at my university who have a full time strength coach for their team.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 10:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just see those 6-7 months as time that coulda been spent getting stronger on the squat, bench and deadlift.

    I like Joe DeFranco's take on "explosive strength" and the training of the olympic lifts. I think if you want to be an olympic lifter (or even a strongman), of course they're important to learn. Furthermore, if you already have training in the olympic lifts, and you want to start training other sports, then that's a great asset you have in your training arsenal. However, I don't feel that the lifts themselves warrant the time invested in training technique vs. time that could have been invested improving the strength of other core lifts.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 12:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm from the other side of the issue: I need the balance and coordination that I get from Olympic lifting and a varied routine. Strength for strength's sake is useless for throwing, especially if I've only worked my slow-twitch muscles.

    Having improved my Olympic lifting has done much for my standup work so I don't feel its time wasted-as far as what I need. I won't dispute an Olympic Coach like Charles except where he's obviously pushing his product.

    I don't get the "risk" insinuation, I toss 240# dudes and they toss me. All of my muscular work is off-balance off-angle and there's lots of tumbling, falling etc. More complex exercises means more CNS feedback. Its my opinion that a wrestler needs much more varied exercises than -say- a sprinter.
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  4. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 1:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Other Santa
    I'm from the other side of the issue: I need the balance and coordination that I get from Olympic lifting and a varied routine. Strength for strength's sake is useless for throwing, especially if I've only worked my slow-twitch muscles.
    If you've only worked your slow-twitch muscle fibers, you're not lifting enough weight. High intensity work, regardless of velocity, recruits fast twitch muscle fibers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  5. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 1:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by H TO THE IZZO
    If you've only worked your slow-twitch muscle fibers, you're not lifting enough weight. High intensity work, regardless of velocity, recruits fast twitch muscle fibers.
    Understood. The other aspect is I just get bored with bench/squat/deadlift, and I need a routine that's a little more reckless and mentally challenging.

    This is more an IMO/self-preference than a statement about what's "functional" or some such claim.
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  6. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 2:15pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I already do snatchs and C&Js with dumbells and kettlebells, so do I really need to learn it with a barbell?
  7. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 3:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    its easier to increase weight with a bar, kb are tricker for mechancs: I've found the L&R coordination a good challenge. I've tried uneven snatches with either one hand starting ahead of the other or 5# heavier on one side.

    At the most, I do this with 40% of my 1RM.
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  8. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 3:21pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can't look at Crossfit as simply an exercise program. It's more of an exercise-based sport in itself. It's accessible to just about anyone, unlike olympic-level strength training programs, and it's doable with a minimal amount of equipment.

    It's not just a means to an end.
  9. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 4:17pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Grinch
    You can't look at Crossfit as simply an exercise program. It's more of an exercise-based sport in itself. It's accessible to just about anyone, unlike olympic-level strength training programs, and it's doable with a minimal amount of equipment.

    It's not just a means to an end.
    That;s what I read in the other critique that Emevas recommended. They actually hold Crossfit games where people compete in everything. I think the people that do crossfit are only doing crossfit.
  10. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 4:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Other Santa
    I'm from the other side of the issue: I need the balance and coordination that I get from Olympic lifting and a varied routine. Strength for strength's sake is useless for throwing, especially if I've only worked my slow-twitch muscles.
    I really don't know what this means, but I rarely if ever work my slow twitch muscles, and I don't do any sort of olympic lifts.

    As for the rest, you can have tons of exercise variety without doing the olympic lifts, along with tons of CNS recruitment and off balance work.

    Again, my stance is that if you already have training in them and know them, then that's another excellent tool in your arsenal, but if you don't know them, I feel that the time spent trying to perfect them is time that could be invested simply in getting stronger on easier movements.

    There are certain activities where the olympic lifts are essential, mainly olympic lifting and to a lesser extent strongman. For other activities, there are ways to develop power (along with strength) through other movements that have a much shallower learning curve.
    Last edited by Emevas; 12/24/2008 4:48pm at .
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
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