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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:12pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ffw
    What I really need is ten or so grappling techniques and their corresponding escapes that can be taught as a continuously moving set for the purpose of building the same kind of following, relaxation and sensitivity skills that are learned from push hands.

    As a non-grappler that needs to include a basic grappling skill set to my cirricum I thought that this might be a good exercise for the likes of Bullshido ahhhh Bullys to help me with.
    Here are all of the responses, in no particular order.


    FootFistWay - I think the general response (which is correct imo) is that if you want to teach grappling you are going to need to learn it from a real source (not a few videos on the internet, not a few seminars and not a few classes). Grappling isn't something you get good at unless you train it....alot.

    Your students will thank you for it in the long run if you get a real grappling background before teaching them or if you bring in someone legit who can teach them.

    It takes about 6 months to 1 year of regular training (2 or 3 classes per week minimum) before you will have just the basics down. No amount of flow drills will give you these skills - you need to train with non-compliant partners for the bulk of your training.
    You were given the only answer that works and that's to have someone who knows what they're doing teach you.
    the grapplers told you to go to a grappling school to learn grappling.
    You said that you were a non-grappler. As such you are not qualified to teach grappling. These drills you are looking for will not give you basic grappling skills. They will be nothing more than a choreographed set of moves that resemble grappling.
    I would say you would be better off bringing in a Judo guy or BJJ guy to teach classes.
    To obtain basic grappling skills I would strongly recommend going to a grappling class and getting training from someone who knows what they are doing.

    Any flow drills you would pick up from the internetz would essentially be worthless without hands on grappling training to go with them. Grappling skillz requires a live resisting opponent other wise all you are learning is some form of interpretive dance.
    Just keep in mind when you come to a site that has a lot of wrestlers, Judoka and BJJ players the answer you are going to get for leaning how to grapple is 'Join a grappling school'.
    Footfistway, if you're going to teach grappling, then you'd better know a LOT about it. I'm sure you started teaching shotokan ONLY after you had learned a lot about it. Likewise, you should think long and hard and do some soul searching before you decide if you're qualified to teach grappling.

    Get help. Get GOOD help; not drills.
    Now my question to you was your experience in tai chi. I then asked you to go to youtube and post videos similar to your experience or what you have seen. That way, WITHOUT ASSUMPTIONS, we could understand why you were equating grappling and push hands. Two things that may contain similar principles but, are fundamentally different. One is primarily ground only, one is primarily standing.

    That is their main crossover.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 12/19/2008 2:14pm at .
  2. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:16pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle Lebells
    he's looking for the techniques that will enable him to say that 'that stuff from the UFC? we incorporate that aswell, please sign here for timmy's 2 year contract and sign this check please.'
    Bingo! You got that right. I thought that from about his 3rd post but this started out in newbietown so calling him a craptastic larping bullshidoka was prohibited.

    But he can use his tai chi hippy push hands experience to develop some hippy grappling drills that won't strain anyone or cause them to sweat too much.

    Grrrrr. :5headache
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:19pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle Lebells
    he's looking for the techniques that will enable him to say that 'that stuff from the UFC? we incorporate that aswell, please sign here for timmy's 2 year contract and sign this check please.'
    His motivations may be mercenary or even dishonest, or he may be a sincere, experienced MA practitioner and instructor who has been convinced by the obvious evidence of MMA competition that grappling is a valuable fighting skill. In which case, IMO it makes sense to hear him out properly and offer serious and professional advice. If that amounts to "either bring in a qualified grappling instructor, get proper training yourself or don't bother" then he'll have to live with that; IMO we need more information before making that call.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:29pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    His motivations may be mercenary or even dishonest, or he may be a sincere, experienced MA practitioner and instructor who has been convinced by the obvious evidence of MMA competition that grappling is a valuable fighting skill.
    No one said any different.

    In which case, IMO it makes sense to hear him out properly and offer serious and professional advice. If that amounts to "either bring in a qualified grappling instructor, get proper training yourself or don't bother" then he'll have to live with that;
    Which has already been stated. What professional advice are you saying?

    You can post up all the techniques you want. No one will stop you.

    IMO we need more information before making that call.
    Did you read the thread?
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:37pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    No one said any different.
    LeBell suggested that FFW was looking for "the techniques that will enable him to say that 'that stuff from the UFC? we incorporate that aswell, please sign here for timmy's 2 year contract and sign this check please."


    Which has already been stated. What professional advice are you saying?
    I know it's already been stated; that's why I summarized it. Again, in my opinion, we need to know more about exactly what he's looking for, and about the experience and skills he's bringing to the table, before offering specific advice.

    For example, he asked for drills based on "ten or so grappling techniques and their corresponding escapes that can be taught as a continuously moving set for the purpose of building the same kind of following, relaxation and sensitivity skills that are learned from push hands." He didn't say that he wanted to enter his students in MMA contests, he said that he wanted grappling-based drills to develop a particular set of skills.

    I could offer him good advice on doing exactly that and so could many of us here, given more info. to work with.

    Did you read the thread?
    Oh, yes.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:42pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    LeBell suggested that FFW was looking for "the techniques that will enable him to say that 'that stuff from the UFC? we incorporate that aswell, please sign here for timmy's 2 year contract and sign this check please."
    Yes, that's lebell. He doesn't count. If you need to see why, I'll show you multiple thread as to why.

    That isn't what I or others stated when trying to be civil at first.



    I know it's already been stated; that's why I summarized it. Again, in my opinion, we need to know more about exactly what he's looking for, and about the experience and skills he's bringing to the table, before offering specific advice.
    You do, He has related enough for me.


    For example, he asked for drills based on "ten or so grappling techniques and their corresponding escapes that can be taught as a continuously moving set for the purpose of building the same kind of following, relaxation and sensitivity skills that are learned from push hands." He didn't say that he wanted to enter his students in MMA contests, he said that he wanted grappling-based drills to develop a particular set of skills.
    See, don't go the "MMA competition route" that is a dumb red herring by lebell and you bit.

    Regardless of the level of competition, you need to be able to grapple to teach grappling. I know, we are about to get side tracked. So, post or explain your drills and we will either agree or deride you both.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 12/19/2008 2:44pm at .
  7. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:44pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    For example, he asked for drills based on "ten or so grappling techniques and their corresponding escapes that can be taught as a continuously moving set for the purpose of building the same kind of following, relaxation and sensitivity skills that are learned from push hands." He didn't say that he wanted to enter his students in MMA contests, he said that he wanted grappling-based drills to develop a particular set of skills.

    I could offer him good advice on doing exactly that and so could many of us here, given more info. to work with.
    You can't learn grappling based drills without knowing how to grapple. Thats like someone who can't skate looking for some good skating drills. Until you know how to skate the drills won't do you any good.
  8. footfistway is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 2:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shotokan, Tai Chi Chuan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Ah, hell ... OK.

    Footfistway, the adversarial banter is just part of the forum culture here. You'll generally get good advice within a certain range of topics as long as you're ready and able to put up with the locker-room talk. If you let it get under your skin, chances are excellent that you'll miss out on the good stuff.

    You mention that you have about thirty years of training - that's good, me too. IMO if you've made an active study of effective combat movement skills (posture, relaxation, breathing, "tactical movement" etc.) then that actually will give you a serious head-start in learning skills such as grappling, essentially regardless of your major emphasis being Shotokan (the push-hands training is, obviously, more directly applicable).

    Can you clarify whether you're interested in drills for standing grappling, ground grappling or both?
    Thank you! Unfortunatly this will have to wait as I have to go. I will have to pick this up later. I don't want to type this on a blackberry.
  9. Lebell is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 3:00pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by footfistway
    I will have to pick this up later. I don't want to type this on a blackberry.
    hmz looks like im probably right on calling him a fagg0t too...
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 3:13pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake

    Yes, that's lebell. That isn't what IU or others stated when trying to be civil at first.
    I know that. You noted that "no-one said any different", I pointed out that LeBell had, in fact, said different and that I was specifically replying to LeBell's suggestion.

    You do, He has related enough for me.
    And I think that you may have jumped the gun by assuming too much, hence my asking FFW for more information about exactly what he wants to get out of these drills.

    See, don't go the "MMA competiton route" that is a dumb red herring by lebell and you bit.

    Regardless of the level of competition you need to be able to grapple to teach grappling.
    I'm very, very good at not biting red herrings. Several posters have referred to the likelihood of FFW's students, armed with this set of (still purely hypothetical) grappling flow drills, being schooled by BJJ white belts, etc. My point is that we don't actually know why he wants to add these drills to his curriculum, beyond what he's told us so far; the substance seems to be:

    Quote Originally Posted by footfistway
    Staying as relaxed as possible in the face of aggression is one of the principals of training that I see as key to the advanced practice of any martial art, grappling included. That being said, yes, the level of tension goes up when you are doing push hands where you can end up across the room or on the floor looking up. This is where I am going with this. When push hands goes outside the comfort level for people (such as being thrown or locked up) they get tight. Just like (I assume) I feel when I am grappling with a person who is much better than me. Good grapplers "feel" like good Tai Chi players to me.
    Hence I am looking for a way of practicing a small range of grappling techniques in a way that makes me able to relax more . I am not looking for an endless practice of rolling around with a compliant partner…..I am looking for a specific tool that I want to experiment with.
    ... which reads to me as a reasonable, intelligent and sophisticated rationale for developing the type of drills he's asking about, as a kind of pressure-testing for combat relaxation skills that could be applied across the board.

    The more specifically he can define his purpose, the more useful our advice is likely to be.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 12/19/2008 3:22pm at .
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