Push Hands and Grappling

[Omega Supreme]

Omega, as much as I respect your opinion, and those of many others in this thread so far, we're going to have to agree to differ on this one. My MA and teaching background is unusual in several respects; part of my experience is that it is not only possible, but can be beneficial, to develop certain combat skills by honest, serious and progressive experimentation, as long as you already have the appropriate combination of pedagogical perspective and technical skills.

I absolutely agree that it's the long way around and that it would be far simpler and better for FFW to develop this curriculum under the guidance of a skilled specialist coach. Since he says that isn't practical, we can either shrug our shoulders and wish him luck, or we can entertain the possibility that his past experience might equip him to do what he has in mind.

Anyway, we'll see where it goes. I expect that most of us will have more important priorities for a while anyway.

Season's greetings to all.

You've got a PM.

[DdlR]

You've got a PM.

Thanks - you too.

[Lebell]

i think we all learned something today.

30 years of doing martial arts doesnt necessary give you any real insight into martial arts.

some people have too much ego and a paradogma that prevents them from learning something, they just pretend they do but everything has to be done by their rules so they wont have to leave their comfort zone.

other people are too nice and enable bullshido, even if its with the best intentions.

uncle Lebell has a sharp eye for idiots (30 years of being one) and his opinion should not be dismissed so hastely.

ok.
so how was everyone's christmas?
i ate so much...still have a nice xmasham (ovenroasted) in the fridge.
totally sweet!

[Xia]

Simple answer to the original question -, make sure that your push hands are seriously geared towards the what to do if someone grabs you and starts very aggressively pulling, pushing, kneeing, headbutting etc.

What is push hands if not a preparation training for that apsect of a fight? And if it isn't preparing you for that, it needs serious alteration to make it more realistic and useful as a training method.

I don't see any reason why push hands can't be improved to become probably what it was supposed to be - a good training method for stand up grappling, but it seems to have drifted very far away from that. After all, what is MMA stand up grappling training if not a kind of push hands? The difference - the huge difference - is in the realism of the training... it's no use doing years of push hands and then someone grabs your neck and it's all out of the window because that's not supposed to happen.

And you know, before you start creating drills, let's face it, if you have to ask the question you're not ready to create the drills - develop effective push hands/grappling skills, THEN refine them in to something you want to teach, surely?

But, you really must go and grapple with grapplers, get the feel of it, learn from it - even if you only do it a few times to separate the theory from the cold reality. There's nothing dafter than the old 'yeah but if I fought a boxer I'd just....' 'Yeah but if I fought a wrestler I'd just...'

I'm all for re-claiming the old CMA training methods and making them real and useful - but the biggest part of that is to completely change back to praxis over theory.

[DdlR]

i think we all learned something today.

30 years of doing martial arts doesnt necessary give you any real insight into martial arts.

some people have too much ego and a paradogma that prevents them from learning something, they just pretend they do but everything has to be done by their rules so they wont have to leave their comfort zone.

other people are too nice and enable bullshido, even if its with the best intentions.

uncle Lebell has a sharp eye for idiots (30 years of being one) and his opinion should not be dismissed so hastely.

... and then there are those young men who over-estimate their own insight and experience ...

You're no uncle of mine, kiddo.

ok.
so how was everyone's christmas?
i ate so much...still have a nice xmasham (ovenroasted) in the fridge.
totally sweet!

Mine was most excellent; Xmas dinner with my wife's family, videochat with my family (in another country), great food and gift-haul.

[Lebell]

... and then there are those young men who over-estimate their own insight and experience ...

You're no uncle of mine, kiddo.

fair enough im not your uncle, sir.

i dont over estimate my insight, i stick with the basis.
basis is: learn grappling from grapplers while sparring a LOT.
anything else won't get you there (properly).
while im only 29 (and a half :-p) years of age, ive been around a little, i dont claim expertise but i do have a solid base.
ive learned enough to know that theorising stuff is a bad thing, a theory is nice in retrospect, never when you're learning.
i know some say that studying the theory cant hurt, this is true, it cant hurt, but it doesnt really help you also.
its only practise practise practise, where understanding theoritical stuff can help you perhaps 3% in your game.
call me stubborn but ill stick with that opinion unless someone can prove me wrong.

Mine was most excellent; Xmas dinner with my wife's family, videochat with my family (in another country), great food and gift-haul.

you're family is in another country?
too bad.
nice thing that nowadays we have all this technology that sorta keeps us in touch with them eh?
good to hear you have had a nice xmas.
take care, im off for the night.

[DdlR]

fair enough im not your uncle, sir.

i dont over estimate my insight, i stick with the basis.
basis is: learn grappling from grapplers while sparring a LOT.
anything else won't get you there (properly).
while im only 29 (and a half :-p) years of age, ive been around a little, i dont claim expertise but i do have a solid base.
ive learned enough to know that theorising stuff is a bad thing, a theory is nice in retrospect, never when you're learning.
i know some say that studying the theory cant hurt, this is true, it cant hurt, but it doesnt really help you also.
its only practise practise practise, where understanding theoritical stuff can help you perhaps 3% in your game.
call me stubborn but ill stick with that opinion unless someone can prove me wrong.

I don't think that FFW was asking for theory; all the stuff about geometry etc. was my input, and it was specifically to point out some of the basic mechanical similarities between the standing no-gi grappling he's already done (push hands) and the ground grappling drills he's starting to think about. I wrote in terms of triangles and leverage rather than shrimps and rubber guards because I don't expect him to be up with current grappling slang and because the technical jargon of push hands is not exactly everyday language on this board.

Assuming FFW comes back and this discussion goes anywhere, the next level will be to translate that theory into practical drills, including non-compliant/sparring applications, towards his goals of pressure-testing and self defense training.

you're family is in another country?
too bad.
nice thing that nowadays we have all this technology that sorta keeps us in touch with them eh?
good to hear you have had a nice xmas.
take care, im off for the night.

I move around the world a lot - yes, the technology helps.