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  1. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 11:09am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No one asked you for your own styles videos.

    You go to youtube and look at some push hands drill comparable to what you are talking about. This gives everyone a point of reference. Then people can choose to help you or not.

    When you can't define what you want, how is anyone supposed to help you?

    Hey guys I'm looking for drills that bridge grappling and are similar to push hands.

    1) Push hands as in the crappy typical American things?
    2) The Judoesque pushhands?
    3) Fixed Step push hands?
    4) Two Man set similar drills?
    5) A form?
    6) Continuous push hands similar to Chi Sau?
    7) Push hands as sensitivity?


    Now, all of these should be included IMO when training Tai Chi. Now, you are asking for ten techniques to help you bridge to grappling.

    1) Stand up grappling?
    2) Clinch?
    3) Throws?
    4) Down on the Ground?
    5) Sweeps?


    I could go on but, I think you get my point.

    I came to write this thread to ask for help in figuring something out. If I knew exactly what I was looking for it would be much easier.
    I asked you to go to youtube and get a video on push hands close to what you want. Not of your style, not of your training, something visual to give us a reference point. Maybe I wasn't clear enough hopefully, you understand now. We need a point of reference or we are going to continue to argue.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 12/23/2008 11:12am at .
  2. footfistway is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 11:41am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shotokan, Tai Chi Chuan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok I did a quick search and I found this:

    http://uk.YouTube - Tai Chi push hands ( Tui shou )-- Montreal

    Mind you that these guys are not nearly as good-looking as I am.......

    This is what I would call some good push hands training. “It is not the end all of training and there are many different examples of good push hands training, this is just one of them”

    You asked:

    1) Stand up grappling?
    2) Clinch?
    3) Throws?
    4) Down on the Ground?
    5) Sweeps?

    Yes, all of the above.

    In the video you see the guys disengage after they are uprooted or thrown, I would like to find a way to continue to the ground and work with a small range of techniques that we can work on to improve this transition. I find that when a Tai chi student gets taken down and you hang on, they start to freak out and get tense as they are now out of their comfort zone. I want to find something to train that will reduce that. I suspect that many of the same principles that are learned in pushing hands will translate to the ground. Figuring out how is my goal. For those of you that say, "Go join a Grappling school" that is not an option for me. Nor do I believe "at this point" that it is necessary for this end. Like I said I have help, I just wanted some additional input from some folks that are good at filtering out all the crap and finding what would REALLY help me and not just lead to "Crappling".
  3. Lebell is offline
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    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 11:51am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    FFW, what do you want to accomplish?!

    seriously, huge wall of texts from your part, but you can't properly describe what you're looking for.

    you want push hands and then some sort of grappling excercised in a push hands kinda way?
    i keep saying: you'll end up with shitty push hands and shitty crappling.

    if you don't get that then you should really develop better in ma's.


    you say there's no need to join a grappling school.....WTF is your point?

    you:'hai guiz, looking for some grappling skillz i can implement into my push hands (lmao, gtfo)'

    me: you want to learn grappling? join a grappling school..'

    you: no i dont feel that is necessary at this point!
    you see, i've always found it terribly interesting to combine the yadda yadda yadda

    me: well **** off then and stop whining.'


    clear enough?
    exit fantasyland dude.


    edit: ill try to add something: in grappling there's no shortcuts.
    you have to understand the entire 'system' and cant handpick out certain moves, its not like a menu you can compose by yourself.
    if you do you have Crappling, not grappling.

    by posting **** like: yeah in combination with or this and that you really annoy me.
    if you want to know certain grappling moves without entering a grappling school then you're doing it wrong period.

    i cant believe you dont get that.
    Last edited by Lebell; 12/23/2008 12:04pm at .
  4. footfistway is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:02pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shotokan, Tai Chi Chuan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle Lebells
    FFW, what do you want to accomplish?!

    seriously, huge wall of texts from your part, but you can't properly describe what you're looking for.

    you want push hands and then some sort of grappling excercised in a push hands kinda way?
    i keep saying: you'll end up with shitty push hands and shitty crappling.

    if you don't get that then you should really develop better in ma's.


    you say there's no need to join a grappling school.....WTF is your point?

    you:'hai guiz, looking for some grappling skillz i can implement into my push hands (lmao, gtfo)'

    me: you want to learn grappling? join a grappling school..'

    you: no i dont feel that is necessary at this point!
    you see, i've always found it terribly interesting to combine the yadda yadda yadda

    me: well **** off then and stop whining.'


    clear enough?
    exit fantasyland dude.
    Dude, serriously, step away from the crack pipe.
  5. Lebell is offline
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    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:05pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by footfistway
    Dude, serriously, step away from the crack pipe.
    i think you're the one who's on drugs.

    30 years of experience my ass, you're full of it.
  6. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by footfistway
    Dude, serriously, step away from the crack pipe.
    You first.

    If you don't know enough grappling to teach it, then go and learn some more at a grappling school until you do.
  7. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:11pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by footfistway

    You asked:

    1) Stand up grappling?
    2) Clinch?
    3) Throws?
    4) Down on the Ground?
    5) Sweeps?

    Yes, all of the above.

    In the video you see the guys disengage after they are uprooted or thrown, I would like to find a way to continue to the ground and work with a small range of techniques that we can work on to improve this transition. I find that when a Tai chi student gets taken down and you hang on, they start to freak out and get tense as they are now out of their comfort zone. I want to find something to train that will reduce that. I suspect that many of the same principles that are learned in pushing hands will translate to the ground. Figuring out how is my goal. For those of you that say, "Go join a Grappling school" that is not an option for me. Nor do I believe "at this point" that it is necessary for this end. Like I said I have help, I just wanted some additional input from some folks that are good at filtering out all the crap and finding what would REALLY help me and not just lead to "Crappling".
    From my perspective the push hands training looked rather compliant. The only way to get past the freak out, known in BJJ as the newbie spaz, is to roll with other grapplers and eventually not be a newbie any more, in other words, experience.

    IMO, you do not have the necessary skills to teach ground grappling. Based on the video you choose you don't have the experience to teach clinch work either.

    What you are purposing to do would not lead to crappling it would start as crappling and not get any better.

    If you have several people you can work with who do BJJ and Judo, invite them to your class to teach the skills you lack and you can learn with your students.

    :toothy4:
  8. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lebell is completely right. You haven't trained grappling yet, but are confident that your present skills will carry over? That's a failure waiting to happen. Scratch that, YOU HAVE ALREADY FAILED. Do not pass Royce, do not collect UFC tapes, go directly to crappling.

    Crappling is defined by ill-taught, ill-practiced, poorly executed and poorly understood grappling. This is what you are describing as your goal.

    I find that when a Tai chi student gets taken down and you hang on, they start to freak out and get tense as they are now out of their comfort zone. I want to find something to train that will reduce that. I suspect that many of the same principles that are learned in pushing hands will translate to the ground. Figuring out how is my goal. For those of you that say, "Go join a Grappling school" that is not an option for me. Nor do I believe "at this point" that it is necessary for this end. Like I said I have help
    A) The thing to train in to reduce that = a grappling school or grappling teacher. Is this your "help" you speak of? If not, it needs to be.
    B) Your suspicions mean ****.
    C) Why is joining a grappling school not an option? Why do you not understand how this lack of an option necessarily corresponds to other lacks?
    D) "at this point it's not necessary" You are wrong.

    I speak from experience. My karate school has some judo, and reviving the nearly-dead newaza-randori practice into a more common staple was a rough experience. I didn't even try to attack tachiwaza-randori because we didn't do it and nobody knew how. The plain fact of the matter is that you need quality instruction because skill does not translate across skillsets. This is why so many high-end surgeons crash their planes, and why so many skilled computer programmers lose money in the stock market. Skills do not transfer into other areas.
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by footfistway
    90% or more of martial arts out there are bullshit, but then again, 90% or EVERYTHING is bullshit!
    How will you know if you are in the 90% or the 10% ?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  10. Lebell is offline
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    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 12:15pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3

    If you have several people you can work with who do BJJ and Judo, invite them to your class to teach the skills you lack and you can learn with your students.
    and here we got the problem, he isnt willing to get over himself and his 30 yeatrs of experience.
    he values playing the master more then to become a noob again.
    ego.
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