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  1. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 10:58pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by e.kaye
    KUng Fu Joe-I have that book.

    Hancock and Harrison had similar attitudes about Ju Jitsu and wrestling. I always felt that they had a bias toward the Japanese.

    As far as the Gotch book, it literally says that he won three falls by submission and that he used strangualtion holds.
    Thanks, e.kaye. I'm definitely gonna try to get my hands on that one, now.


    I found another gem while searching through the archives of the New York Times. Here's an article which recounts a jiu-jitsu rules bout between an Englishman named Will Bingham, a known exponent of jiu-jitsu and a catch-as-catch-can wrestler, and a Japanese man named Aryo Toko. The relevant portion follows:
    Quote Originally Posted by New York Times (1913 Mar 01)
    Will Bingham, the middleweight English wrestler and expert of the jiu-jitsu style, tried conclusions with Aryo Toko, a son of Nippon, and delighted the crowd with exhibitions of ground and lofty tumbling without which no jiu-jitsu contest would be complete. The Englishman finally made the Japanese cry quits, which announcement was made by his frantically slamming his right hand to the floor just before being put out with a strangle hold, which is not barred in the rules of the game.
    Direct link here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...659C946296D6CF

    This seems as yet more evidence that Americans weren't familiar with submission wins. Those familiar with submission grappling understand that there is no more shame in losing by tap-out than there is by losing through pinfall. However, the language the author utilizes implies desperation on the part of the Japanese grappler. Certainly not the most convincing evidence, but the author of the article definitely seems much less familiar with the rules and techniques of jiu-jitsu than he is with catch-as-catch-can.

    --Joe
  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 2:16am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ddlr's explanation makes the most sense- I'm not exactly sure what would happen if you had a submission hold like a hammerlock without a rule that allows you to tap out- could you just crank the hell out of the arm? Pain holds as a way to lead into a pin makes sense with the given info.
  3. mattmo is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2008 6:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just found this thread and have found it very informative.

    Kung-Fu Joe, please check out this link that I found in the NY Times Archives. It is dated 1885. I'm not sure if this predates American exposure to Ju-Jitsu or not. Have we established when this might have been? This article clearly describes some kind of windpipe strangle, and not a blood choke. The win was by submission.

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...649D94649FD7CF


    I haven't gone through all of them yet, and this is the first clear submission that I have found. It certainly looks like most matches were won by 2 out of three "falls". "Fall"s appear to be pins most of the time, but some matches were also one by "throws".

    Pretty fascinating to read these old articles.
  4. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 8:20am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mattmo
    I just found this thread and have found it very informative.

    Kung-Fu Joe, please check out this link that I found in the NY Times Archives. It is dated 1885. I'm not sure if this predates American exposure to Ju-Jitsu or not. Have we established when this might have been? This article clearly describes some kind of windpipe strangle, and not a blood choke. The win was by submission.

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...649D94649FD7CF
    That's exactly the kind of find I've been looking for! Not sure how I passed over that one, as I tried searching through Evan Lewis articles, but I'm very glad that you found it!

    I'd say that 1885 surely predates the major cross-pollination from Japanese arts. This seems to show that-- prior to its being banned in the 1890's-- there was at the very least a known danger from the Stranglehold, and that the wrestlers had a signal for quitting the match. While I'd still argue that the vast majority of wrestlers sought pinfalls over such victories-- especially given the exceptional nature of Evan Lewis-- this certainly removes some of the skepticism I've had regarding early Catch-as-Catch-Can.

    I haven't gone through all of them yet, and this is the first clear submission that I have found. It certainly looks like most matches were won by 2 out of three "falls". "Fall"s appear to be pins most of the time, but some matches were also one by "throws".

    Pretty fascinating to read these old articles.
    I noticed that, too. It seems like early wrestling matches were often decided at the Takedown-- much as in modern Judo. In later articles, dating towards the 1920's, I've seen such scoring referred to as a "flying fall."

    --Joe
  5. A.M. is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2008 9:28pm


     Style: none

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There was a small population of Japanese immigrants in California by the 1880s though and immigration form Japan to the U.S. mainland dates back to the late 1860s. So jiu-jitsu was probabilly being practiced somewhere in the U.S. at that time. Although it might not have actually had a influence on catch wrestling.
  6. e.kaye is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2008 11:54pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice.
  7. Vince Tortelli is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2008 12:44pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *Subscribed*
  8. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2008 1:32pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a comment in this video (skip to 2:50):

    YouTube - Learn to How To Learn - Billy Robinson, Scientific Wrestling

    ... where Billy Robinson says that many of the old Catch sub setups depended on the kinds of mistakes a guy would make while avoiding a pin, and that he and the other old timers are working to adapt their game to a ruleset that lacks the pinfall. Interesting stuff.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
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