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  1. #91
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here are the earliest wrestling rules which I have yet been able to find which make provisions for forfeiting a fall due to a punishing hold. From the 1939 National Wrestling Association rulebook:

    "FALLS AND DECISIONS


    "Both shoulder blades momentarily pinned to the mat shall constitute a fall; flying and rolling falls shall not count. By momentarily is meant pinned to the mat for the referee’s silent count of three seconds. Conceding a fall or quitting because of receiving punishment by means of legitimate holds constitutes a fall.

    "The referee shall slap on the back, or the shoulders, a wrestler securing a fall so that the under man will not be strained by being held too long in a possibly painful position."

    This is, of course, a few decades after the cross-pollination of Western wrestling and Judo began, but it is interesting to note that these rules still do not contain a specified signal for such a forfeiture. There is no description of a tap-out or somesuch as a universal signal for conceding a fall. Presumably, the concession would have been made verbally-- which is more reasonable than it would be in modern submission grappling, since the NWA still banned strangle holds in 1939.

  2. #92

    Join Date
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't have any evidence to back anything up. But in talks with old timers and those training old timers it was concluded that before the submission was allowed the hold would punish the opponent enough that they would pin themselves to get out. Which is why a lot of the hold (gotch toe hold as mentioned) will move to a position for the pin. This predates CACC.

    As far as the carnival wrestlers they preferred the hook (submission) over the pin. Every now and then they would go against jujitsu guys and amateur wrestlers (no submission knowledge).

    Have you contacted Nathan Hatton or Stephen Greenfield?

  3. #93

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FatC View Post
    I don't have any evidence to back anything up. But in talks with old timers and those training old timers it was concluded that before the submission was allowed the hold would punish the opponent enough that they would pin themselves to get out. Which is why a lot of the hold (gotch toe hold as mentioned) will move to a position for the pin. This predates CACC.

    As far as the carnival wrestlers they preferred the hook (submission) over the pin. Every now and then they would go against jujitsu guys and amateur wrestlers (no submission knowledge).

    Have you contacted Nathan Hatton or Stephen Greenfield?
    Making one's opponent so uncomfortable that they choose to be pinned is still commonly taught everyday at the high school level of wrestling.
    Wrestling is the art of making one's opponent so uncomfortable that they just want to go home.

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