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  1. yomitche is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/18/2008 1:35pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: escrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Bukti Negara

    Hey all. Just wondering what the opinions of others might be about Bukti Negara. I've had the opportunity to work out a few times with a Bukti Negara group, and was very impressed, but don't know much about the art. Other than the most accessible info (such as basics about the founder, etc.) I don't know how this art compares to other styles of Silat, for example. What is the opinion of others here?

    If you had the opportunity to study Bukti Negara with a very qualified instructor, would you do it? What other combative styles would you concentrate on instead, if you chose not to train in Bukti Negara?

    How do you think Silat, in general, compares to a style such as Muay Thai?

    I train a lot in FMA, and would like to compliment my weapons training with empty hand work. I know the FMA weapons translate to empty hand skills, but I am fortunate enough to have the time and finances to work with other systems right now and am not sure what to concentrate on. I have trained minimally with Muay Thai and Bukti Negara, so I have an introduction to both, but can't make an informed decision about this. Unfortunately, I have to choose one, because I don't have the time or money to play with both. Also, it might be cool to be able to teach something comprehensive to others, so I would rather focus on a single empty hand style in addition to the FMA, with an eye toward teaching in the future.

    What do others here think?
  2. escrimador6 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/18/2008 3:21pm


     Style: FMA / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would say that it depends on the quality of the instruction available to you in either of the arts you are looking into. Muay Thai gyms tend to be of high quality since the trainers usually have fight records that you can look into. I am not overly familiar with Silat but have seen it range from flowery, almost wu shu style theatrics to those that train hard, spar full-contact, and can handle themselves in a fight. In the end it comes down to which style meets the goals that you have set for yourself and you have fun doing.
  3. Travtex is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/18/2008 10:52pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, speaking on Silat in broad generalities is rough. Wide range of varying styles under that banner, and I don't know anything about the particular one you mention. I train primarily under the 'Modern Arnis' label, though the instructor brings in stuff from a variety of FMA styles and Judo.

    (Quick Research Break)

    Alright... at first glance, Bukti Negara doesn't seem to be one of the harder-hitting forms of Silat. The primary foundation of the art is listed as 8 djuros (Katas/Forms) and 8 sambuts (2-man sets). That kind of language gets me thinking Indonesian Kenpo.

    'Course, take THAT for what it's worth -- It all depends on training methods and what you want to accomplish in the end.
  4. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/18/2008 11:47pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Marc Denny of ze dogbrothers said it's responsible for a great deal of his martial development, but criticized the style for lack of pressure testing(ie, the techniques work and gave him a good perspective, but the training methodology doesn't really produce fighters). Unless you're also training in a somewhat alive grappling art, you might not get as much benefit.
  5. yomitche is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2008 8:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: escrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the input, guys!

    I am very impressed with Silat, but again, as SelfCritical pointed out, it appears "untested" in the lab environment. Predictable attack with creative response. I think there is good stuff there, but I am just not quite willing to commit yet.
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 1:36am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A good basic foundation in muay thai should serve you well in empty hand FMA or silat.
  7. stray_bullet is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 9:03pm


     Style: Inactive

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bukti Negara djurus, langkas, and applications.

    YouTube - Pendekar Paul DeThouars - Djurus- Part 1

    YouTube - Pendekar Paul DeThouars - Djurus- Part 2

    YouTube - Pendekar Paul DeThouars - Djurus- Part 3

    I dont think it would be a good short term foundational empty hand art, but a lot of the more experienced (tempered) practitioners have shown some really impressive stuff.

    Beware that a lot of the North American Silat scene is made up of backstabbing goofballs, though certainly not all. Nonetheless, the Serak Based Silat has a lot of depth and breadth if you're up to it technically (I wasn't).
  8. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2008 10:17pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hates me some djuru's. Just taking the sets of takedowns and entries and isolating them with increasing intensity makes more sense than the more traditional(well, within the last few hundred years) methods of djuru's then lanhka, then kembangen, then finally buah then sparring.

    Also, for most of them, I think cross-training in a standup grappling combat sport will speed you along the way. Most of the techniques are fine, and somewhat sneaky, I just don't like the training methodology much.
  9. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2008 8:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    I hates me some djuru's. Just taking the sets of takedowns and entries and isolating them with increasing intensity makes more sense than the more traditional(well, within the last few hundred years) methods of djuru's then lanhka, then kembangen, then finally buah then sparring.

    Also, for most of them, I think cross-training in a standup grappling combat sport will speed you along the way. Most of the techniques are fine, and somewhat sneaky, I just don't like the training methodology much.

    I've got a blackbelt in a bullshit silat system. No I'm not going to get into that, I've posted extensively on the subject. Suffice it to say the following:

    Nearly everything, minus the goofy hand movements, you could get in a silat school you can get in a decent MMA gym that teaches a lot of clinch work and fighting from the clinch. Including striking and all. A place that's got a mix of thai-boxing and greco-roman wrestling should do just fine.

    Silat is something I feel like you want to get as extra. Like, it's a cool thing to train in and some of it's really interesting. I just think that in the United States, with so few options as to a good instructor, you're better off with an MMA gym.

    Unless you're specifically looking to train in that kind of "flavor."

    Which I don't think you are. As for the bukti negara unless they spar medium to hard consistently you're not going to be able to apply any of the things they'll teach you. Not because you're not capable necessarily, but because they will have been practicing that technique in a vacuum for so long that they wouldn't even know how to teach it anymore.

    The silat system I trained in was a lot like that. Tons of techniques, next to zero live training to pressure test. In their version of light contact sparring I was able to pull off maybe 10% of what I had learned. I've never been able to use it against even a mediocre mma fighter or boxer or whathaveyou.
    Last edited by JP; 12/31/2008 8:12pm at .
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2009 6:53am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with most of what was said above. If your instructor/guru/whatever isn't teaching you something useful immediately, you're probably in a money sucking school. There is a lot of disagreement when it comes to training, what's important, etc. Guru Rudy Terlinden (my "lineage") has been quoted saying that if someone was capable of getting down pat every juru from Serak in a year, then he would teach them. Not to mention the fact that he was a great advocate of sparring and pressure testing all skills when possible.
    There are some styles of Silat that are a bit too flowery and attached to acrobatics. If you want a better chance of getting something worthwhile, the odds are slightly better if the art is from a Dutch-Indonesian source (IMO).
    From what I've been told from folks that used to be involved in Bukti Negara and DeThouars' Serak, the style of Bukti Negara supposedly "came from a dream" that Paul DeThouars had while seeking an art that was "more accessible to Western Students." I've also learned from reliable sources that the primary reasons for the creation of BN is that Guru Paul didn't want to give rank in Serak to women, and that he needed a kind of "entry" art for Serak, so that if you master Bukti Negara, ONLY THEN will you rate to learn Serak.
    :laughing4

    Oh, & for the record, we don't have "belts" or ranks. We just train, learn new things and refine them.
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 1/02/2009 7:04am at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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