Midtown Karate Dojo

[Vorpal]

I know this is an older thread, but I felt compelled to respond. This is one of the finest traditional karate schools in the country. It's roots are directly to Okinawa and the schools founder was one of the first Karate instructors in the country and the personal choice of Shosin Nagamine to bring the art to the US.

That said, it sounds like you weren't really looking to learn karate. It sounds like you were just interested in ring fighting. If your goal is to just get in the ring and fight, take kickboxing it is the best route to accomplish the type of "victory" you are looking for. And by the way, zenkutsu dachi is not a stance to use in kickboxing.

Learning traditional Okinawan Karate requires years to learn. You are really only building a foundation in the kyu ranks. Until you reach Dan rank, you are basically developing strength, endurance, speed, reflexes and lots of muscle memmory that will make you an exceptional fighter down the road.

The fact that you tried zenkutsu dachi in a kickboxing match tells me that as a san kyu you have little understanding of the art. My suggestion to you is to take Judo for a few months and then practice your Fukyugata and Pinan katas and think. Then re-evaluate what your body has been training with all that kata.

True karate fighting is far different from kickboxing. It also is quite different in philosophy from BJJ and Judo. For example, the basic chest block and head block you trained so much can actually be a high speed arm bar that can break an opponent's arm. Zenkutsu dachi is more a stance to defend against a grappling attack and you can also throw an opponent from it as in tai otoshi. These applications only come to you as you deepen your understanding of the art.

The point of training kata so much is to train your body to the point where moves are automatic and you attain mushin in a real fight. Most of the real karate techniques you learn in kata are only for a real fight. You can't spar full speed, full contact standing arm bar (chest block, etc). There are also many techniques in judo that are never sparred in this maner either.

As you advance you can push bunkai pretty far and you can also really mix it up with yaksoku kumite. Of course you and another dan rank can meet and work on anything you like such as randori work as in judo. When you reach dan, you have only proven that you are teachable and then you can begin to master the art.

We are right back to the "it takes years" stuff again. If I can take a six month Muay Thai student and he can WTFPWN a three or four year student of an "it takes years" art, of what value is that art? For some reason the skill of fighting is subjected to a mystification that doesn't infect other skillsets. I wouldn't train with a scuba instructor who didn't let us get in the water for two years, I wouldn't learn basketball from a tearcher that asked me to only make imaginary jump shots for a decade. For some reason people buy into it in martial arts. There are dozens of testimonies on this site alone from people that have dropped the "traditional" path after being crushed by someone with minimal time in an art that uses superior methods of training (live randori/sparring/rolling). The fact that we revisit these same trite platitudes over and over is just staggering to the imagination.

[Matsubayashi]

you fail at logic.

because it has worked for some people does not make it a reliable and practical technique. to teach it as such to students is irresponsible as an instructor.

Its like any other technique, it is not going to work all the time. Do punches work all the time??? Give me a break. The technique like most karate techniques are multi-purpose. What I am talking about takes a bit of luck to pull off, but is attempted while blocking a strike, so even if it fails, you are doing something to your advantage in a fight. We aren't talking jumping flying back kicks with a punch to the ankle, just a close in block that when caught right can break an opponents arm or just allow you to lock the arm long enough to stike at their head or wherever else you have an open target. Nothing mystical, obscure or fancy about it.

[Matsubayashi]

We are right back to the "it takes years" stuff again. If I can take a six month Muay Thai student and he can WTFPWN a three or four year student of an "it takes years" art, of what value is that art? For some reason the skill of fighting is subjected to a mystification that doesn't infect other skillsets. I wouldn't train with a scuba instructor who didn't let us get in the water for two years, I wouldn't learn basketball from a tearcher that asked me to only make imaginary jump shots for a decade. For some reason people buy into it in martial arts. There are dozens of testimonies on this site alone from people that have dropped the "traditional" path after being crushed by someone with minimal time in an art that uses superior methods of training (live randori/sparring/rolling). The fact that we revisit these same trite platitudes over and over is just staggering to the imagination.

Who is stopping you from taking Muay Thai, kickboxing or whatever style you want? It also only takes minutes to buy a gun and shoot someone.

You could go into a karate dojo and learn live sparring and do the same as in a muay thai class and learn many of the same kicking and knee techniques. That isn't why you are leaning karate. You learn karate to learn how to get in and control your opponent, just as you do in Jiu Jitsu.

You can become reasonably efficient in traditional Okinawan Karate in six months, but you will be far from highly efficient at it. If all you want to do is go into the ring and pound the crap out of some other dude than take just take Muay Thai or Kickboxing. If you want to learn how to get into an opponent and control them, you need to take judo, jui jitsu or a more traditional form of karate. It takes 18mos to 2 years to get a blue belt in BJJ. Why should a complex striking and grappling art take any less time? To become pretty proficient at traditional Okinawan karate it takes as much time as BJJ, but you are much, much better after four or five years and the same is true for BJJ.

[It is Fake]

What I am talking about takes a bit of luck to pull off,

Okay thanks for destroying your own argument/trolling.

Yes, a punch works every time it may not be effective every time. It is far more effective than a "bit of luck to pull off.

I love how EVERY TMAer specifically targets BJJ, MMA, and the ring. Please pay attention to the fact Vorpal did not address a specific style in his argument you did.

Oh and LOL@Control. BJJ is all about control.

[Matsubayashi]

Okay thanks for destroying your own argument/trolling.

Yes, a punch works every time it may not be effective every time. It is far more effective than a "bit of luck to pull off.

I love how EVERY TMAer specifically targets BJJ, MMA, and the ring. Please pay attention to the fact Vorpal did not address a specific style in his argument you did.

Sorry that you misunderstood what I said. Let me put it this way: With a bit of luck you can knock a guy out with one punch, but you are still making progress in a fight if you hit him. With a bit of luck you can break a guys arm with the the technique of which I speak, but you are still making progress in a fight by blocking his strike.

By the way, where did I target MMA/ring?

[It is Fake]

If all you want to do is go into the ring and pound the crap out of some other dude than take just take Muay Thai or Kickboxing.

Ring fighting is about generalship and control just like an SD situation. It is the closets you can get to being in a streetfight. No, it is not the same as a streetfight and neither is training in the local dojo doing one step techniques..

Sorry that you misunderstood what I said. Let me put it this way: With a bit of luck you can knock a guy out with one punch, but you are still making progress in a fight if you hit him. With a bit of luck you can break a guys arm with the the technique of which I speak, but you are still making progress in a fight by blocking his strike.

I understood exactly what you meant because, you just did it again.

[Matsubayashi]

Ring fighting is about generalship and control just like an SD situation. It is the closets you can get to being in a streetfight. No, it is not the same as a streetfight and neither is training in the local dojo doing one step techniques..


I understood exactly what you meant because, you just did it again.

You're having serious comprehension problems. If you just learn kickboxing or muay thai, you will get destroyed in the mma ring. If you think blocking a strike is useless, then you don't know jack about fighting.

[It is Fake]

You're having serious comprehension problems.

No, I'm just not responding to your repeated logical fallacies.

[Matsubayashi]

No, I'm just not responding to your repeated logical fallacies.

In other words, you fail. Thank you for playing.

[It is Fake]

In other words, you fail.

Yes, at using anecdotes and contradictions. You are absolutely correct. Sensei Fallacy will you teach me to be an adept larper and internet philosopher like you?
*Bows deeply*

Thank you for playing.

Oh no more lessons in cheerleading for my art. :(