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  1. Gbemi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 8:33am


     Style: BJJ (faixa branca)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Right back at ya, Vorpal.

    And once I'm back in the groove, I hope to make to throwdown and meet up again.

    Yes, I have moved on. I was injured after 3 months of bjj, but now I'm back in the game. I also just started MT.

    To Bushiman, I appreciate your love for karate. I tried what you said. I trained about 4 days a week for almost a year and a half. The result was, when I tried out my skills, I was mediocre at best. Vorpal was good enough to spar with me a couple of rounds, but for the sake of arguement , his besting me could have been credited to him being more experienced and even bigger (though skill trumps size). But there was no excuse when a young man, approximately 60-70 pounds lighter than me, and training for only half as long (and had a very peculiar mustache), bested me. And I don't mean he kinda did a little better than me. I mean that I was incapable of protecting my face (which by the way hurt a lot more when Vorpal hit me). Also, while karate prides itself on it's foot work and ability to parry and evade attacks, none of that showed itself when faced with a person actually trying to hit me.

    Zengutsu dachi ended up being a very limited stance. I couldn't stop chambering under pressure. My supposedly deadly 'snap' kicks bounced off this smaller person while his round house kicks pounded my legs and sides.

    I will say, what has been said many many times here already. Karate is very good when done properly. 10 years of doing kata is not proper Karate. I have been able to verify that the founder of the school I left, actually did spar, and did teach his students to test their skill as a form of training in addition to kata. This was a man born and raised in Okinawa. A WWII bomb explosion survivor. Everyone knows he was a good fighter The above mentioned school sacrificed those principals for the sake of high enrollment. Now, that school has over 25 independant schools world wide and probably over 1000 active students at any given time. Good for them. But a san kyu like me is actually worse off in matters of self defense than a person who doesn't train at all. The natural ability to protect your face is actually eroded.

    I have nothing against good karate. I'd love to train in Kyokusin or Seido one day. I've met several Goju and shotokan schools who have moved away from kata only or point sparring only training and have included pad work, stress testing and sparring. I'd train in a school like that ANYTIME.
    But doing Kata for 10 years hoping that one day, the sensei decides I'm finally worthy to learn how to fight just doesn't fit my outlook on Martial Arts.


    Please search my other threads in the Traditional arts section. You will see that pressure testing and sparring IS in fact traditional and ancient. Kata only training is a fabrication. Matsumura, Choki Motubu, Chotoku Kyan, Ankichi Arakaki. All traditional Karatemen, all good fighters, all sparred and fought.

    Sorry for the rant, but I've been away, had to let it out.
  2. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 9:14am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What's up? Glad to see you're still around and are still training.
  3. Gbemi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 9:34am


     Style: BJJ (faixa branca)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All is good here. How's all w/ you and the fam?

    Unfortunately, I was off for almost a year b/c of a real bad shoulder injury. By the time I was ready to go back and train, my instructor sold the school. But yes, I found a new school and I'm back in business, this time with striking.

    My new school does more no-gi than with, but that's cool. I'll get used to it.
  4. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 10:23am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bushiman View Post
    Your interpretation of this school is very interesting yet some what misguided. It is very common for beginner students to feel that they are not getting enough of practical training and too much kata. It is not explained to the new student that these feelings may occur because Traditional Karate is not for everyone. Students that stay with Traditional karate for a very long time usually do not question their instructors, and certainly do not question the effectiveness of excessive kata training. If you think of a Master and Student few centuries ago, there was no tolerance for questioning. In most cases the student had to prove to the Master that he or she was worthy of teaching. Trust me my friend, if you train kata on a regular basis 3 or 4 times a week, there is no other deadlier form of defense. The interpretation of the techniques withing the kata is something that one can only undertake after decades of rigorous training. Consistent kata training at various speed and power is all one needs to be a very deadly fighter. Another thing to remember is that true karate only shows itself when it is justifiably used.
    you really need to read the sticky on the rating system. you gave the striking instruction a rating of "10" which for a karate school means that they are sending competitors to the highest level of full contact competition (i.e. K1, or world level kyokushin knock down tournaments.)

    you may disagree, but it's OUR system, and you should abide by it.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  5. Gbemi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 11:05am


     Style: BJJ (faixa branca)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bushiman, Do you train/teach at Midtown? Have you been there long? I'm just wondering if we know each other.
  6. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 1:17pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm just recovering from a shoulder injury myself (from work, not MA) and am looking forward to getting back to BJJ. I have been working mostly kicks in the interim, they're getting much better. The family and job are going great right now, life is good. Hopefully I'll be at a TD in the future, if I can stay uninjured.
  7. foxguitar is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 10:23am


     Style: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What he described is alot like the older style traditional dojo
    alot of Kata and kihon but very little kumite , Thats the way Karate used to be taught .Kata kata and more Kata.

    free sparring rather then the prearranged one step or three to five step sparring only became really popular fairly recently 1950s most due in large part the emergence of the JKA and Nakayama Sensei breaking tradition from Funakoshi Sensei who was not in favor of free fighting or Jiyu Kumite . Prior to that most traditional Okinawan and Japanese Karate Do hardly practiced free fighting .
    I read that there were some styles that prior to the JKA were into jiyu kumite Wado Ryu and Goju Ryu Yamaguchi style being notable

    In closing I could understand the OPs frustration while I am a Kata proponent you have to have a balance and you have to train alive to make your Karate realistic and that means alot of kumite I dont mean just prearranged , The Jiyu kumite version
    Move along citizen ,nothing to see here !!!!!
  8. Gbemi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 10:45am


     Style: BJJ (faixa branca)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, here is the thing, there is evidence that sparring was part of karate before the 1950's. Here is an interview wit Chotoku Kyan in 1929:
    http://www.seibukan.org/articles/kyaninterview.html

    Please notice that in 1929, he is referencing the "old days" where the sparring was done with no protective gear. In other words, by 1929, Karate was already evolving towards safer ways to spar and not just adopting the practice.

    This is relevant to this thread as Kyan was the principal teacher of Nagamine, who was the founder of the style Ueshiro trained in, who founded the above mentioned school.

    It was Nagamine who omitted the sparing from Karate, not Ueshiro who added it.
  9. foxguitar is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 12:18pm


     Style: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gbemi View Post
    Well, here is the thing, there is evidence that sparring was part of karate before the 1950's. Here is an interview wit Chotoku Kyan in 1929:
    http://www.seibukan.org/articles/kyaninterview.html

    Please notice that in 1929, he is referencing the "old days" where the sparring was done with no protective gear. In other words, by 1929, Karate was already evolving towards safer ways to spar and not just adopting the practice.

    This is relevant to this thread as Kyan was the principal teacher of Nagamine, who was the founder of the style Ueshiro trained in, who founded the above mentioned school.

    It was Nagamine who omitted the sparing from Karate, not Ueshiro who added it.
    Good post

    not saying there wasnt sparring but the JKA is what IMHO was instrumental in making it as popular as it is now .
    and im not JKA .
    Prior to that they did experiment with bogu kumite and sorts . But still I submit it was the JKA being the leading exponent of kumite as we know it now of course evolving into the WKF and the like. Of course you had exceptions who were into free sparring before the JKA.
    Move along citizen ,nothing to see here !!!!!
  10. NYCReader is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2010 11:41pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gbemi View Post
    Well, here is the thing, there is evidence that sparring was part of karate before the 1950's. Here is an interview wit Chotoku Kyan in 1929:
    http://www.seibukan.org/articles/kyaninterview.html

    Please notice that in 1929, he is referencing the "old days" where the sparring was done with no protective gear. In other words, by 1929, Karate was already evolving towards safer ways to spar and not just adopting the practice.

    This is relevant to this thread as Kyan was the principal teacher of Nagamine, who was the founder of the style Ueshiro trained in, who founded the above mentioned school.

    It was Nagamine who omitted the sparing from Karate, not Ueshiro who added it.
    I'm not sure about the part where Nagamine "omitted" sparring from his version of karate, although clearly, he shifted the direction of his style to reflect his conversion to zen buddhism. My modest martial arts background includes both "traditional" and so-called reality-based training, and I understand to some extent what GBemi is talking about, since I have trained at the midtown dojo. He is right, though, that the people there are very nice, and there is a serious emphasis on preserving the character of the Ueshiro teachings, as it is rooted in kata. For those who are seeking a quicker way to develop fighting abilities, this sort of "traditional" approach may not be for them, and that is perfectly valid. In my opinion, in order to gain maximum benefit from training in traditional systems, one must have the patience, the desire to be part of a particular tradition, must be able to view what is being taught, from different perspectives. What one learns in the dojo may in fact, be just the tip of the iceberg....Personally, my background in Vee-Arnis-Jitsu, in addition to personal research, helped me to better understand how I can incorporate karate into my own personal system of self-defense.....
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