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  1. Karritto is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 9:13am


     Style: Karate, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Line between Dojos and McDojos

    I was talking with some of my fellow martial artists last night. We were discussing how kids today dislike a lot of traditional ways schools are run and would rather spar and such without the redundant drills, which they find boring. we also discuss how some schools change accordingly to keep the business coming in. Afterword I sat there thinking, I prefer the traditional way since that's what my sensei taught me. I understand a kid would get bored with having stand there throwing a million front kicks, etc. However, I was also thinking that a lot of McDojos today do make good money (I live down the street from a such a McDojang), but in today's day and age is it still possible for a traditional school to stay alive? And then where do you draw the line between dojo and mcdojo?
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 9:36am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Karritto
    I was talking with some of my fellow martial artists last night. We were discussing how kids today dislike a lot of traditional ways schools are run and would rather spar and such without the redundant drills
    In Judo and Muay Thai, it is the traditional way to spar a lot without redundant drills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karritto
    which they find boring. we also discuss how some schools change accordingly to keep the business coming in. Afterword I sat there thinking, I prefer the traditional way since that's what my sensei taught me.
    I would think you'd prefer something because, after doing some critical thinking, you found it works for you in a particular context or because it has specific benefits (in addition to any sentimental value, which is valid), not simply because that's how it was taught to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karrito
    I understand a kid would get bored with having stand there throwing a million front kicks, etc. However, I was also thinking that a lot of McDojos today do make good money (I live down the street from a such a McDojang), but in today's day and age is it still possible for a traditional school to stay alive?
    What is a traditional school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karrito
    And then where do you draw the line between dojo and mcdojo?
    Hmmmm, what is a mcdojo TO YOU? What do you think it means?
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. sempaiman is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 9:51am


     Style: Mixed-Up Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What is "Traditional School"???, depends on interpretation. How far back, 100years, 50years, 25 years. Most school call themselves traditional because all students must wear white GIs, practice common Japanese Katas and thow in Japanese names for kicks, blocks and punches every so often. Some school do not wear protective gear when sparring. Yet others instructors yell at sudents a lot and say they are traditional. If you go back a hundred or more years a traditional school would be in someones back yard and students would wear regular clothes. So I don't think there is a real defenition of "trditional School", but its just what a person perceives it to be....
  4. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 10:02am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Traditional martial arts can live on but the type of instructor needs to change. The instructor needs to be a human being just like every one else. By being personable and respectful to the students.

    Gone are the days of the sensei (god i hate that fucking word). If you have a children's program have them call you Mr. or Ms. In the adults class have them call you by your first name. If your a 20 year old BB and there is a 40 year old student you call him Mr. and say yes sir to him. Get off your pedestal and remember that your **** stinks just like the rest of them.

    Besides people do not know what traditional MA really are anyway. In our town we got ATA, ITA and WTF TKD schools along with 3-5 American karate schools. There is 1 JKA Karate school, 1 USJA Judo school, 1 University Judo club, 2-3 boxing gyms and our academy offering BJJ, Judo, boxing and MMA. Guess which group has the most students? OUr group has total the same amount of students as one of the American karate schools. Do they teach traditional karate? Nope. I have been to Japan and they don't come close. Is the TKD traditional? Nope. While I have never been to Thailand or Brazil I can tell you that the BJJ and Maui Thai we do is "traditional" and I can dam sure vouch for the Judo.

    The reason the real traditional schools don't do well is because we are real. We don't hide away from others. We train hard and are very tough on ourselves and expect a lot from our students. We want to insure the skills that our people learn is the truth. We don't lie or pretend to be something we are not. Sadly in today's world that's not what people want. Its the reason fat people sign up at health clubs and used car dealers sill make money. The simple fact is that people are stupid and believe anyone in a position of presumed authority. Until people educate themselves it will never change. That's why I support this website.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  5. Karritto is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 11:15am


     Style: Karate, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's very true it's hard to define traditional. My karate instructor taught me and my fellow karateka to always look at him when talking and never turn out back entering and leaving the dojo. We always had to wear a white gi and were encouraged to be respectful not just in martial arts, but in society as well. But yeah I agree that traditional depends on the person.

    To me a school is not a McDojo as long as they teach someone to respect themselves and others and to take that acquired knowledge with them as they grow older. Also that knowledge should be practical so they can defend themselves instead of something that is flashy, just for show and would end up being a death sentence.
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 8:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A McDojo is a place that charges you an exorbitant amount of money compared to other schools of equivalent quality (or shittines). It's not necessarily related to the quality of instruction or lack thereof.

    Bullshido is the practice of teaching you stuff that is not practical, passing to their students as if it were, and/or when they attempt redefine qualities that are not inherently martial (honor, discipRine, asianophilic tendencies, religion, philosophy, historical revisions and innacuracies and all that) as characteristics fundamental to martial arts.

    Some of them (those related to a good character) are nice-to-have, and usually come as part of hard training. But a martial arts they do not make. In other words, bullshido is bullshit in martial arts.

    You can have a McDojo that is not bullshido (they uber-charge you but teach you how to fight). And you can have a school that is bullshido but it's not a McDojo (plenty of little krotty schools that charge you peanuts but that don't teach you anything practical.)
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. AlphaFoxtrot51 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 8:12pm


     Style: Sambo n3wb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why is this in MABS?
    :911flag: If you are lost, I will find you. If you are wounded, I will carry you. If you are pinned, I will cover you. If you are killed, I will recover and remember you. If you trespass against me, my countrymen, or my loved ones...I will kill you.

    Christmas Tag Wishlist:


  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 8:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Karritto
    It's very true it's hard to define traditional. My karate instructor taught me and my fellow karateka to always look at him when talking and never turn out back entering and leaving the dojo. We always had to wear a white gi and were encouraged to be respectful not just in martial arts, but in society as well.
    Those are good, civil teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karritto
    But yeah I agree that traditional depends on the person.
    And herein lies the problem. There is no definition, and in fact, therein is the abuse of the term "traditional". Traditional means attached to a tradition. What type of tradition it is (ceremonial, technical, methodical), and how old or young it is, that's up to debate. It does not convey any form of useful information with which to objectively categorize martial arts. Such usage should be discouraged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karritto
    To me a school is not a McDojo as long as they teach someone to respect themselves and others and to take that acquired knowledge with them as they grow older.
    This a nice-to-have, something that makes one civil and useful. But it's not a martial characteristic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karritto
    Also that knowledge should be practical so they can defend themselves instead of something that is flashy, just for show and would end up being a death sentence.
    Amen brother.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  9. Muerteds is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2008 8:28pm


     Style: Itinerant Wanderer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh
    Gone are the days of the sensei (god i hate that fucking word).
    You hate the Japanese word for teacher? Do you also hate "sempai" (instructor)? Why do you do Japanese arts, that are based on Japanese culture, and reject the culture? There is nothing wrong with respecting your teacher. If your teacher prefers to be called Sensei, Coach, Sifu, Mister, Professor, Madam, or Guru- why does it matter? It's an apellation of respect. If you have made a conscious decision to allow someone to teach you, begruding them the respect of address seems petty.

    I think it's not out of the realm of politeness for an older student to refer to me as sensei when we work in class. It sets a good example for the younger students. We are trying to break the habit of casual informality with most of them, trying to turn "Yeah." into "Yes, sir.", or specifically, "Yes, sensei." By the same token, I will give the respect right back to the students. Now, if your concern is the cult-like mentality and atmosphere of the types of places Bullshido's community rails against, I would simply say that politeness does not equal weird cults and crappy instruction.

    Ok, that thought just stuck in my craw. You can go right back to trying to sift the wheat from the chaff.
  10. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2008 9:06am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A. Being a BB does not make you a teacher

    B. Its not used correctly. Sensei Artigue is incorrect its Artigue Sensei. If your going to speak Japanese do it fucking right.

    C. Too many people attach themselves to the word without earning it.

    D. SeNpai is a mentor or guide to less experienced person the kohai. This is an individual relationship between 2 people and is one of great respect and mutual gain. While it is part of martial arts the true purpose is used incorrectly.

    E. A true sensei is an older very experienced teacher who can guide all of his/her students down a path in their own martial arts experience. He/she has trained many people to higher levels in their sport and is respected by the community at large for his/her actions.

    I hope to be there some day and be called sensei with all the respect and admiration the title deserves. Until then I am a coach and above all else I am Josh a human being with all the same flaws and faults as everyone. A title does not make you only your actions.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
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