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  1. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 1:08am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sure, but I'm all in favor of letting people push expanded rules in any direction they wish. I do think a fighter should be able to submit. That's just a safety thing.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. Sang is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 3:23am


     Style: MMA, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you expand too much you'll end up with sanda or mma, best using these rules. I'm a shitty boxer and a worse grappler but i'd still give these rules a try, sound like fun.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 8:24am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleSoft
    Sure, but I'm all in favor of letting people push expanded rules in any direction they wish. I do think a fighter should be able to submit. That's just a safety thing.
    I was looking at it from the other direction; old-school pugilism didn't include standing submission holds, so the London Prize Ring rules took it for granted that such techniques wouldn't be used and didn't other banning them. Historical footnote: the concept of recreational submission wrestling seems to have disappeared from Europe when pankration faded out and was only re-introduced by jujitsu at the turn of the 20th century (ref. E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu hybrid style).

    Whereas we could allow standing subs as an option, they would potentially change the nature of the game.
  4. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 10:00am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    I was looking at it from the other direction; old-school pugilism didn't include standing submission holds, so the London Prize Ring rules took it for granted that such techniques wouldn't be used and didn't other banning them.
    This is why you are the duke of the occident, and I am the tzadik of the orient.
    Historical footnote: the concept of recreational submission wrestling seems to have disappeared from Europe when pankration faded out and was only re-introduced by jujitsu at the turn of the 20th century (ref. E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu hybrid style).
    So where does Catch come from?

    Whereas we could allow standing subs as an option, they would potentially change the nature of the game.
    I don't think they would. How many Smith/Rhodes or Saku/Renzo type contests are there in all of NHB/MMA?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 10:36am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleSoft
    This is why you are the duke of the occident, and I am the tzadik of the orient.
    Awesome; where's my custom t-shirt?

    So where does Catch come from?
    Lancashire, but it's complicated. Lancashire catch-as-catch-can was unusual in European wrestling terms because it allowed "pain holds", but those holds were used to force an opponent into a pin position (two shoulders down) rather than as subs per se.

    The novelty of submission wrestling was a major reason for the success of the first Japanese wrestlers to challenge Europeans (Bartitsu Club associates Yukio Tani, Sadakazu Uyenishi and Taro Miyake between 1899-1905). Their challenge matches were orchestrated as "tests" against European styles, but since they were fighting under jujitsu rules, the Europeans were more-or-less set up to lose; whereas they could quite often throw and pin the jiujitsuka, they were at a loss as to what to do next, while the Japanese were quite happy to be thrown and pinned as they could apply their submission locks from all sorts of positions. That concept was foreign enough to the European wrestling establishment that it took them a while to catch up.

    I don't think they would. How many Smith/Rhodes or Saku/Renzo type contests are there in all of NHB/MMA?
    Good point.
  6. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 10:55am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Awesome; where's my custom t-shirt?
    You have to fight me for it.


    Lancashire
    How odd that both boxing and catch come from the same dinky little island.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 11:26am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleSoft
    I do think a fighter should be able to submit. That's just a safety thing.
    Any sporting contest of this type must include a provision for capitulation. For example, modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers are concluded with a verbal submission and a handshake.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Lancashire catch-as-catch-can
    I look forward to further discussion upon this topic in the WMA forum.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  8. Domite is offline
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    blotter art.

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 11:49am


     Style: San Shou

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers
    Do tell.
  9. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 12:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    For example, modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers are concluded with a verbal submission and a handshake.
    HMMmmm... The Irish must grow differently in Boston.
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    I look forward to further discussion upon this topic in the WMA forum.
    I look forward to seeing anything in the WMA forum
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2008 12:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    Any sporting contest of this type must include a provision for capitulation. For example, modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers are concluded with a verbal submission and a handshake.
    LPR boxers signaled capitulation by not returning to the scratch line within the allowed time (which is also the probable origin of the phrase "not coming up to scratch").
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