Page 2 of 5 First 12345 Last
  1. #11
    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT supporting member
    Matt Phillips's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756
    Style
    Submission Grappling
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sure, but I'm all in favor of letting people push expanded rules in any direction they wish. I do think a fighter should be able to submit. That's just a safety thing.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

  2. #12
    Sang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,247
    Style
    MMA, Yoga
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you expand too much you'll end up with sanda or mma, best using these rules. I'm a shitty boxer and a worse grappler but i'd still give these rules a try, sound like fun.

  3. #13
    DdlR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,836
    Style
    Bartitsu
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleSoft
    Sure, but I'm all in favor of letting people push expanded rules in any direction they wish. I do think a fighter should be able to submit. That's just a safety thing.
    I was looking at it from the other direction; old-school pugilism didn't include standing submission holds, so the London Prize Ring rules took it for granted that such techniques wouldn't be used and didn't other banning them. Historical footnote: the concept of recreational submission wrestling seems to have disappeared from Europe when pankration faded out and was only re-introduced by jujitsu at the turn of the 20th century (ref. E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu hybrid style).

    Whereas we could allow standing subs as an option, they would potentially change the nature of the game.

  4. #14
    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT supporting member
    Matt Phillips's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756
    Style
    Submission Grappling
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    I was looking at it from the other direction; old-school pugilism didn't include standing submission holds, so the London Prize Ring rules took it for granted that such techniques wouldn't be used and didn't other banning them.
    This is why you are the duke of the occident, and I am the tzadik of the orient.
    Historical footnote: the concept of recreational submission wrestling seems to have disappeared from Europe when pankration faded out and was only re-introduced by jujitsu at the turn of the 20th century (ref. E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu hybrid style).
    So where does Catch come from?

    Whereas we could allow standing subs as an option, they would potentially change the nature of the game.
    I don't think they would. How many Smith/Rhodes or Saku/Renzo type contests are there in all of NHB/MMA?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

  5. #15
    DdlR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,836
    Style
    Bartitsu
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleSoft
    This is why you are the duke of the occident, and I am the tzadik of the orient.
    Awesome; where's my custom t-shirt?

    So where does Catch come from?
    Lancashire, but it's complicated. Lancashire catch-as-catch-can was unusual in European wrestling terms because it allowed "pain holds", but those holds were used to force an opponent into a pin position (two shoulders down) rather than as subs per se.

    The novelty of submission wrestling was a major reason for the success of the first Japanese wrestlers to challenge Europeans (Bartitsu Club associates Yukio Tani, Sadakazu Uyenishi and Taro Miyake between 1899-1905). Their challenge matches were orchestrated as "tests" against European styles, but since they were fighting under jujitsu rules, the Europeans were more-or-less set up to lose; whereas they could quite often throw and pin the jiujitsuka, they were at a loss as to what to do next, while the Japanese were quite happy to be thrown and pinned as they could apply their submission locks from all sorts of positions. That concept was foreign enough to the European wrestling establishment that it took them a while to catch up.

    I don't think they would. How many Smith/Rhodes or Saku/Renzo type contests are there in all of NHB/MMA?
    Good point.

  6. #16
    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT supporting member
    Matt Phillips's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756
    Style
    Submission Grappling
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Awesome; where's my custom t-shirt?
    You have to fight me for it.


    Lancashire
    How odd that both boxing and catch come from the same dinky little island.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

  7. #17
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    2,161
    Style
    ti da shuai na
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeopleSoft
    I do think a fighter should be able to submit. That's just a safety thing.
    Any sporting contest of this type must include a provision for capitulation. For example, modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers are concluded with a verbal submission and a handshake.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Lancashire catch-as-catch-can
    I look forward to further discussion upon this topic in the WMA forum.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  8. #18
    Domite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn, NYC
    Posts
    1,525
    Style
    San Shou
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers
    Do tell.

  9. #19
    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT supporting member
    Matt Phillips's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756
    Style
    Submission Grappling
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    For example, modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers are concluded with a verbal submission and a handshake.
    HMMmmm... The Irish must grow differently in Boston.
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    I look forward to further discussion upon this topic in the WMA forum.
    I look forward to seeing anything in the WMA forum
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

  10. #20
    DdlR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,836
    Style
    Bartitsu
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    Any sporting contest of this type must include a provision for capitulation. For example, modern bareknuckle matches between Irish travelers are concluded with a verbal submission and a handshake.
    LPR boxers signaled capitulation by not returning to the scratch line within the allowed time (which is also the probable origin of the phrase "not coming up to scratch").

Page 2 of 5 First 12345 Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO