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  1. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2003 11:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Amp
    Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer

    Those guys are trying to sell wing chun as a complete hand to hand system, instead of a striking system. The pathetic result is obvious in that picture. /QUOTE]

    I don't know anything about those guys, but any "system" of combat that would limit itself to one facet of combat (striking) wouldn't survive very long.

    Wing Chun is a complete system. The fact that your Sifu doesn't know, or won't show you any Wing Chun techniques other than striking indicates that you need to find a new teacher.

    Sorry to be so blunt, but it's best you know this immediately.
    OK Amp, now you are just being irritating. I don't have to find a new teacher, thank you very much: my teacher has excellent skills and is very open to questions of all kinds.

    When I specifically asked him if there was any grappling in the curriculum, he explained that are are locks and some throws, but absolutely NO groundfighting. The system is, therefore, incomplete.

    Bear in mind that I do practice wing chun, and I consider it the very best set of techniques for self defense in the MA market. But traditional wing chun (and I talk about the undisputed, we-all-agree-this-is-wing-chun techniques - siu nin tao, chum kiu, biu je, dummy, staff, knifes) does not include groundfighting techniques.

    The wing chun that you practice may be a complete system, and in that case, congratulations. But the traditional stuff is not complete, period. Note that I am in no way saying that my lineage is better than yours, or any crap like that (lineage wars are pathetic), but as far as I and my teacher knows, yongchonquan came from China as a pure striking system, and I know of at least three traditional lineages, all present in Brazil, which do not include groundfighting techniques in their curriculuns (moy yat, lee shing, lo).

    If your instructors include groundfighting in their classes, more power to you. But you will have to prove me that those techniques were in the traditional curriculum, in order to support your claim that wing chun is a complete system in that regard.

    In other words: please don't try to convince me that your teacher's wing chun is better than my teacher's.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  2. Southpaw is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 12:02am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WingChun Lawyer:

    I'm sure your teacher is great. Believe me, I hate lineage wars as much as the next person. But just because he says there is no groundfighting in Wing Chun doesn't mean that it is true. It could be that your teacher was never taught it, or his teacher was never taught it??? Or a lot of things?

    Let me ask you this, does your teacher teach the tri-pole (tri-podial) form?
    Most Wing Chun schools don't, but it is traditional Wing chun. It being known or not has no bearing on whether it exists or not.

    Yip Man taught his disciple Duncan Leung groundfighting techniques. My Sigung is Duncan Leungs disciple. We train Wing Chun groungfighting. I don't know what else to tell you?
  3. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 12:11am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oops?

    There's only the vast majority of WC informational resources and MA fans saying WC is all striking.

    and yes, lineage bitchery is fucking stupid.

    WWWWVVVVTTTTTSSSSSSIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGG TTTTTTTSSSSCCCCCHHHHHHUUUUUUNNNNNGGG!!!!!!!!!
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  4. Boyd is offline
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    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 12:15am

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wing Chun Lawyer is absolutely, positively correct, and so far is the only rational WC person in the universe.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  5. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 12:36am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boyd is an expert in all things Wing Chun. He should be consulted on all Wing Chun topics. If Boyd doesn't know about it, it isn't a part of Wing Chun.
  6. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 1:33am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well why in all hell can the Wing Chun people not agree with each other? Good god almighty I've never seen so much ridiculousness.

    Has anyone ever seen people from another system arguing over what was or was not original? Why is "originality" so important to Wing Chun practitioners? Why can't they just admit that they started applying Wing Chun to the ground recently and then trumpet their adaptability instead of claiming that Wing Chun groudnfighting comes from the sacred scrolls of Wing in the book of Chun? Or alternately, why can't they get their goddamn story straight?

    And why oh why is public irritation over this nonsense not tolerated?
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  7. bigfatbrute is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 3:03am


     Style: wrestling/BIFF

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well to put it this way i dont think that wing chun ground techniques would be anywhere near the level of bjj, submission wrestlings level, if i was going to learn ground i would do bjj and submission, any worthwhile bjj guy will beat wing chun techniques on the ground, take wing chun for what it is, a striking system, learn what you dont know about striking frrom wingchun but dont go and attempt to re learn your ground game from wing chun, its just not designed to mix it up on the ground. AMP one questn, if wing chun is asgood as you say itis y dont we se it in UFC,
    dont take offence just interested to know why i have never seen any wing chun fighters ripping anyone to pieces
  8. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 7:24am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel- You are absolutely right...I seriously don't know when it got into the system I study, but it's there. My Sigung was taught by Duncan Leung so that's as far back as I can prove it.

    bigfatbrute- Of course you wouldn't train WC specifically for grappling techniques...but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
  9. bigfatbrute is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 7:42am


     Style: wrestling/BIFF

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    mm but the question i asked was wy if it is so effective does no one see wing chun trained NHB fighters ripping it up in the octagon
  10. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2003 8:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Amp
    WingChun Lawyer:

    I'm sure your teacher is great. Believe me, I hate lineage wars as much as the next person. But just because he says there is no groundfighting in Wing Chun doesn't mean that it is true. It could be that your teacher was never taught it, or his teacher was never taught it??? Or a lot of things?

    Let me ask you this, does your teacher teach the tri-pole (tri-podial) form?
    Most Wing Chun schools don't, but it is traditional Wing chun. It being known or not has no bearing on whether it exists or not.

    Yip Man taught his disciple Duncan Leung groundfighting techniques. My Sigung is Duncan Leungs disciple. We train Wing Chun groungfighting. I don't know what else to tell you?
    Amp, the point is, I never heard of traditional wing chun groundfighting. I may be wrong, of course (by the way, please send me a PM with a link to your school's site), but I personally know of at least three traditional lineages which don't teach those techniques, and all wing chun schools which offer this sort of training make it very clear that this is an innovation.

    Check out the www.wingchunkuen.com site, by the way. They have lots of information on wing chun of all kinds, if you want to have an educated discussion about the art (we should create a new thread for that, though).

    Not that I have a problem with innovations, mind you. Groundfighting techniques are (as I said before) a great complement for wing chun. I personally go for judo when I have to grapple.

    Can't say anything about the tri-pole, dude. I am just starting chum kiu. I will ask my sifu when my classes resume, on january.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
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