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  1. cuatro76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 3:11pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Upon watching the shuai jiao video again, it looks like the guy in the white jacket throws it with less consistency of form. The guy in the blue jacket throws it more like harai goshi, emphasizing the leg sweep. The guy in the white jacket, depending on how deep his supporting leg and hip are either throws it more harai goshi or more ashi-guruma. He reminds me of how heavy weight judoka throw harai.
  2. junkielectric is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 6:58pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ/couple months MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Other Serge
    Judo-guys, is Uki-Otoshi where you basically do a Tai-Otoshi to the back corner? Goddamn Kodokan book has such bad pictures the IDK what's what.
    I learned it as osoto-otoshi, but the reference book I've got and judoinfo both have it as a variation of osoto guruma.
    http://judoinfo.com/images/animation...sotoguruma.htm
  3. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 7:09pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    I was going to write a diatribe about how zhie bie can't be 1/2 tai-otoshi since tai-otoshi is a hand throw based on dropping instead of tripping or hip contact
    I knew I was totally mangling the Judo classification system, but it was the best way I could come up with to put it into Judo terms. Your summary of "tai otoshi kuzushi and upper body twisting, but a leg sweep down below (and, significantly, it's a sweep below the knee, not above as in harai-goshi)" is exactly right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    ashi guruma
    Ah! I've never been taught this one:

    YouTube - ashi guruma

    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Other Serge
    The close gripping makes it a tighter throwing action
    I've noticed that uki lands harder with less opportunity for good ukemi when I use the shuai jiao grips.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Other Serge
    we've done a no-gi variant where you push up on uki's chin as a substitute for lapel, thing is it really sucks for your partner!
    Taiji has a version of this throw that uses a palm-to-chin shove/strike for the right hand's role, and another that replaces the lapel-grip elbow lever with an elbow strike thrown kind of like a hook from the clinch, both of which use either a triceps grip or a modified whizzer instead of a high sleeve grab. The chin one is okay to practice, but I find the elbow one too hard to train properly.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  4. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 7:14pm

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     Style: sambo/crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool that its in Taiji! I've adapted that throw for training by having the uki hold his throat with his hand. You can grab the wrist or plant your forearm along theirs to mimic the harder grips. Its a little easier on the uki that way.
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 7:28pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *Lines everybody up and slaps them in the face. Except Tom (Yes you too Serge)

    What the hell are we talking about here? Not that I don't know the answer but this discussion is really about what throw is what or what is the difference, or we're talking about grips here and applying proper leverage on the throws. You ADD guys have got to stay focused.
  6. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 8:41pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ay, this is a multi-layered topic.

    Alright, here goes.

    When it comes to the classification of throws in regards to Judo, (as it's the only MA I can attest to) it is not the grips, nor anything else but the principles of the throw that make it tai-otoshi or harai-goshi. The Shuai-Jiao example is almost certainly ashi-guruma if it had to be classified.

    That being said, I think that this is the answer Jack was initially looking for...

    It doesn't matter the grip (in regards to classification) as long as the principles remain the same. But certainly there are preferences for every person. The way that Jack was taught this throw in Shuai-Jiao with a cross grip eliminates a lot of the problems with the tsurite, the lapel hand. It won't get blocked or stopped by the arm of uke, nor will it by blocked by the chest of uke. These are generalities of course.

    However, there is the tai-otoshi that are generally taught with the tsurite under the (non-cross grip) armpit of uke. The advantage of this is, for some, better kuzushi, especially at the initial stage of the throw.

    In Daigo's Kodokan Nage Waza the tsurite remains orthodox grip, but pulls across the face and up, which I believe is what JR was taught in BJJ and Judo. This is the traditional tai-otoshi and some find it most effective.

    Look something like this?


    Really it is about what the thrower feels is the best grip for the throw. There is no 'ideal' grip only the most ideal for the situation. It depends largely on who you are fighting.

    Tai-Otoshi does have no-gi applications contrary to popular belief. I've been taught an SD variation using the hand on the neck. Here is a vid of a no-gi tai-otoshi and others:

    Tai-Otoshi @ around 29 seconds:
    YouTube - MMA, JUDO with Matt Hughes & Mike Swain

    So... yeah...

    OH! And Swain's harai-goshi from the OP's vid is ashi-guruma as well.

  7. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2008 9:19pm

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     Style: sambo/crossfit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    *Lines everybody up and slaps them in the face. Except Tom (Yes you too Serge)

    What the hell are we talking about here? Not that I don't know the answer but this discussion is really about what throw is what or what is the difference, or we're talking about grips here and applying proper leverage on the throws. You ADD guys have got to stay focused.
    goddamn oww! fukker!

    I'm all over the place, but wtf? we're comparing three different front throws and all I can focus on is the goddamn turkey were prepping.

    Here's some douchebag-or-other doing a Podnoshka (the Tai-Otoshi-like throw):

    [IMG]YouTube - How to Do Sambo Martial Arts : How to Do a Front Trip Move in Sambo Martial Arts
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  8. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/27/2008 9:21pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We do a nihon goshin aikido no gi tai otoshi. It's called "slap to the side of the head" I believe.
  9. MurphysLaw is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2008 6:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gripping is unimportant past the off-balancing faze of your entry. There are no "right" grips for certain throws.

    If your harai goshi and tai otoshi are 'sometimes hip and sometimes trip' then you're not doing them right. Harai goshi is a hip throw, and tai otoshi is a hand throw. Neither should ever involve tripping, and if your hip or torso are supporting (or even touching) the opponent during your tai otoshi you're actually performing seoi otoshi.

    The reason you don't see the cross-lapel grip from the shuai jiao clip often in judo is that judo rules say you can't hold the same side of the opponent with both hands for more than a few seconds (without throwing) or you'll be penalized. This rule was created to prevent stalling, but it also means that when you use a cross lapel grip you're indicating to your opponent that you're about to attack one side of his body. In other words, since judo rules won't allow you to stay with the cross lapel grip and wait for the right moment to throw, switching to it lets your opponent predict your throw far in advance, and prepare a counter.

    The shuai jiao throw is "tai otoshi henka", popularized by in judo by Tokio Hirano. It looks a bit like harai goshi, but it's actually not a hip throw at all. It's a hand throw with the thrower's leg used to generate extra torque. Notice how the thrower's hips are high, rather than supporting his opponent's hips as they would be in harai goshi. To put it simply, he's throwing with torque generated by his limbs instead of leverage generated by his hips, which means his throw is less efficient than a proper harai goshi.

    I see some confusion about the use of the limbs during these techniques. Harai goshi isn't about sweeping your opponent's legs out from under them, you swing your leg backwards because that creates a certain tilt to your hips that throws your opponent if their hips are resting on yours. Similarly, tai otoshi isn't about pulling your opponent over your ankle, you step back into the hurdle position to lower your center of gravity without falling over backwards, and then do the "turn the steering wheel" motion with your hands to throw the opponent, just like uki otoshi (YouTube - Yamamoto Shiro Sensei Uki Otoshi
    Last edited by MurphysLaw; 11/29/2008 8:23pm at .
  10. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/30/2008 12:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    btw, Omega hopefully knows I'm taking a piss with this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Other Serge
    we've done a no-gi variant where you push up on uki's chin as a substitute for lapel, thing is it really sucks for your partner! But it is a badass RBSD adaption especially if you crush their throat as you throw them.

    If you were completly badass, perhaps you could do a haygut uppercut as the push?
    :ninjafigh
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
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